Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Frankfurt School: In our time

The Frankfurt School were German left leaning academics trying to come to terms with how the promise of modernity led not to socialism but the holocaust and the gulag. That really is it.

No, that really isn't it. Marcuse for example remained optimistic about the utopian possibilities of revolution, and he was the greatest intellectual influence on the New Left.

I'm not sure what your first sentence means. The CIA's contact with the F-School is well-documented, so I assume you're not disputing that?
 
Ah, we're back to the 'conspiracy' bit. The cultural changes of the post-war period (in capitalist countries, particularly the US) are down to the ideas these radical intellectuals.

Total rubbish.

And even if it were true, it does not undermine capitalist societies. Not in any way.
Exactly. Its like Jordan Peterson thinking that western society is being undermined “because Foucault” when about 0.001% of the population has read him and of those that have only 0.3% have actually understood him. Stephen King has probably had 10000x the influence on western societies than Derrida. Just more paranoid gibberish from the right.
 
It really does exist. Honestly, it does. Marxists really do sit around and plan how to undermine traditional Western culture, in order to bring about a Marxist revolution. They totally do. Trust me on this one.
Look at how well they’ve done over the years. Capitalism has never ever been so strong. Ever. There is no alternative truly being pushed. Even many Marxists agree with this now. Most Marxists that I stumble across are just descriptive rather than prescriptive, and I can totally see why. I mumble a bit about mixed economies and then go back to reading Heidegger. The idea that this grand success of Marxism culturally, plots etc, is just cookoo.
 
That's like saying the SWP effect meaningful change through their meetings. They don't. Similarly, the real world phenomena pointed at by those using the term 'cultural Marxist' were not produced by Marxists who sat around planning them. That's the 'conspiracy' bit of the theory. Hell, half the things such bigots complain about, such as multiculturalism, immigration and even minority rights, are the product of neoliberal thinking as much as anything else.
And most people who are seen by the right as “woke” are fully ideologically neoliberal, often with complete unawareness of being so. In fact that is why major companies are so keen on it too, and appear very woke often, because it’s creates a kind of atomised “well being” mode of existence where the only thing that truly matters is someone’s inner phenomenological experience instead of class war fare and solidarity. My company is massively right on whilst cutting our wages each year pretty much. Nothing to do with Adorno 🤣
 
Look at how well they’ve done over the years. Capitalism has never ever been so strong. Ever. There is no alternative truly being pushed. Even many Marxists agree with this now. Most Marxists that I stumble across are just descriptive rather than prescriptive, and I can totally see why. I mumble a bit about mixed economies and then go back to reading Heidegger. The idea that this grand success of Marxism culturally, plots etc, is just cookoo.
The whole point about cultural Marxism is that it operates in the realm of culture. Not the economic realm.

So a successful cultural Marxist project would undermine existing culture-- things like marriage, sexuality, the family, gender roles and so forth.

If we look back at the history of Western society over the last 50 or 60 years, we're forced to concede that our culture has been utterly transformed.
 
The whole point about cultural Marxism is that it operates in the realm of culture. Not the economic realm.

So a successful cultural Marxist project would undermine existing culture-- things like marriage, sexuality, the family, gender roles and so forth.

If we look back at the history of Western society over the last 50 or 60 years, we're forced to concede that our culture has been utterly transformed.
Your attributing that to one single cause - a few Marxist thinkers that no one ever reads?
 
As I say, Steven King or Bruce Springsteen or X Factor probably 1000x more influential. “We think we are free”, so “wokeness” will come from all myriads of the political spectrum, even often from many on the right. Meanwhile the machine rolls endlessly on with hardly anything happening at all. I don’t mean to sound critical of wokeness, which is just code for “kindness and fairness”. But to think it’s some Marxist ploy is earth shatteringly reductive
 
Your attributing that to one single cause - a few Marxist thinkers that no one ever reads?
Ah but people do read them. And they think about them, discuss them endlessly, and do their level best to implement their theories. Not a lot of people perhaps, but some very clever ones.
 
Ah but people do read them. And they think about them, discuss them endlessly, and do their level best to implement their theories. Not a lot of people perhaps, but some very clever ones.
Bit like those who read Proust or Shakespeare avidly then. Real powerful cultural forces in the world, lol
 
The whole point about cultural Marxism is that it operates in the realm of culture. Not the economic realm.

So a successful cultural Marxist project would undermine existing culture-- things like marriage, sexuality, the family, gender roles and so forth.

If we look back at the history of Western society over the last 50 or 60 years, we're forced to concede that our culture has been utterly transformed.

It's all a bit “post hoc, ergo propter hoc,” this, innit...
 
The whole point about cultural Marxism is that it operates in the realm of culture. Not the economic realm.

So a successful cultural Marxist project would undermine existing culture-- things like marriage, sexuality, the family, gender roles and so forth.

If we look back at the history of Western society over the last 50 or 60 years, we're forced to concede that our culture has been utterly transformed.
It's hard to know where to start with this. I'll just choose one aspect.

Taking sexuality, I would argue the exact opposite of what you argue here. Compared to 50 years ago (in certain parts of 'the West' at least), the gay rights campaign has been neutralised as a subversive force and coopted into the services of capitalism, much to the disgruntlement of many old leftie gay people. As one mate put it, he's 'lost his edge'.

It has been a remarkable social transformation in places like the UK. But one of the most remarkable aspects is precisely the way capitalism has absorbed it.
 
It's hard to know where to start with this. I'll just choose one aspect.

Taking sexuality, I would argue the exact opposite of what you argue here. Compared to 50 years ago (in certain parts of 'the West' at least), the gay rights campaign has been neutralised as a subversive force and coopted into the services of capitalism, much to the disgruntlement of many old leftie gay people. As one mate put it, he's 'lost his edge'.

It has been a remarkable social transformation in places like the UK. But one of the most remarkable aspects is precisely the way capitalism has absorbed it.
No argument from me. I think the cultural prominence of nonprocreative sexualities is linked to the economic dominance of auto reproductive finance. Adorno would not approve.
 
This isn't true. The idea that "sexuality " forms a discrete sphere of experience arises only in the C20th West.
Sexualities and third genders have been around for centuries, in Japan, Thailand India and other countries outside of your Western bubble.

Yeah, sure the terminology used to describe it is relatively new. Perhaps that's what you meant.
 
Sexualities and third genders have been around for centuries, in Japan, Thailand India and other countries outside of your Western bubble.

Yeah, sure the terminology used to describe it is relatively new. Perhaps that's what you meant.
No I meant the idea that sexuality can be isolated from other areas of life, like the economy. That's both false and recent.
 
It goes back only to the eighteenth century molly-houses. There have always been men having sex with men, but there haven't always been people who identify as "homosexual."
I don't know if men who visited molly-houses identified as homosexual -- it would have been difficult, as the word hadn't yet been coined -- but this has fuck all to do with anything.
 
I don't know if men who visited molly-houses identified as homosexual -- it would have been difficult, as the word hadn't yet been coined --
Of course they did not. They identified as sodomites, catamites, Ganymedes, buggerers, pederasts, minions, poppets, lombards, judies, maries, mollies (obviously) and brown-hatters.
 
Of course they did not. They identified as sodomites, catamites, Ganymedes, buggerers, pederasts, minions, poppets, lombards, judies, maries, mollies (obviously) and brown-hatters.
Try to calm down. Did you have a point, or were you just wanking?
 
  • Like
Reactions: tim
Try to calm down. Did you have a point, or were you just wanking?
The point is that the "homosexual" is a recent invention. The terminology I rehearse above describes a range of sexual roles and behaviors utterly different from our own.
 
Apart from anything else, the idea that the current cultural visibility of non-het sexual behaviours is due to economic factors may be right or it may be wrong, but it does directly contradict Dwyer's argument from earlier in the thread that people are turning the frogs gay because they read Marcuse.
 
Apart from anything else, the idea that the current cultural visibility of non-het sexual behaviours is due to economic factors may be right or it may be wrong, but it does directly contradict Dwyer's argument from earlier in the thread that people are turning the frogs gay because they read Marcuse.
My point has always been that the dichotomy between sex and economics is illusory. The historical examples I cite above should have established this clearly.
 
And my point is that you can't be an economic determinist and a conspiracy theorist/Great Man theorist at the same time, try picking one and sticking to it. Or don't, you could try logging off instead.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ax^
Back
Top Bottom