Feminism - where are the threads?

[SheilaNaGig]

In my experience, kids who need to be dressed aren't in the age group where that sort of bullying is a thing. But, even if they were, where do you think the bullies get the idea that these things matter? You point only reinforces mine: we'd all be better letting those lesser 'infractions' slide, rather than judging one another.

Not just dressed. Shopping, laundry, checking for holes and size etc. Children old enough to dress themselves (6, 9, even 12 year olds) are not in a position to take responsibility for all the rest of the clobber duties.



campanula makes a good point too. The aristos go around in scruffy clobber as well, don’t they. I mean, not all of them and not all the time, but very expensive jumpers with holes in the elbows isn’t frowned on as it would be for working class kids.

 

[Thora]

O, this stuff about appearances is, to my mind, more shaded by class than gender, I know most working class parents put a lot of time and effort into how their children are presented. Middle class families (at least the ones I know) tend to be a lot more 'relaxed about standards (including, enragingly, the stressed issue of nits). I always felt judged as a poor parent.

I agree with this too.

Thinking about it though, I do think it's interesting how "what to wear" expectations are very gendered and some things that to me feel so obvious they're instinctive, don't register at all with Mr Thora.
So for example this morning Mr T dressed our daughter in jeans, a dark red long sleeved top and a pale yellow (Summer) cardigan. All clean and good condition and the right size. But I had to change her cardigan, the colour clash was too much. I doubt Mr Thora could identify the difference between a summer cardigan and a winter one
Which colours or patterns go together or clash is something I have clearly picked up and he hasn't. It's not important to him.
Athos is right that it absolutely shouldn't matter if the child is clean and comfortable, but to me it does.

 

[Athos]

Not just dressed. Shopping, laundry, checking for holes and size etc. Children old enough to dress themselves are not in a position to take responsibility for all the rest of the clobber ditties.

I'm not advocating that men shouldn't do their fair share of laundry and clothes buying etc. I'm simply saying that, if some of the more minor failings - leggings back-to-front, clashing patterns, etc. - can be laughed off in the case of men (as they often are), then why should women be judged more harshly for them (especially by other women)?

 

[campanula]

We all know the answer to that one, Athos. Because consumer capital, aspirational bollocks, etc. has been invested in an endless campaign to sell us stuff...which is deeply potent when shame, guilt, envy is leveraged to flog us shit (on which, for many of us, especially when we are lacking in social capital, becomes difficult to discard).

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I'm not advocating that men shouldn't do their fair share of laundry and clothes buying etc. I'm simply saying that, if some of the more minor failings - leggings back-to-front, clashing patterns, etc. - can be laughed off in the case of men (as they often are), then why should women be judged more harshly for them (especially by other women)?

Well yes, of course. Very obvious thing is obvious.

But you were saying that women should drop their game to make it easier for everyone, rather than saying everyone should stop expecting impossibly high standards from women while giving more slack to men. Which is harder to achieve of course.

Anyway, isn’t this one of the arguments in support of school uniform?


And also what campanula says.

 

[Athos]

We all know the answer to that one, Athos. Because consumer capital, aspirational bollocks, etc. has been invested in an endless campaign to sell us stuff...which is deeply potent when shame, guilt, envy is leveraged to flog us shit (on which, for many of us, especially when we are lacking in social capital, becomes difficult to discard).

Quite. It's not inevitable, though.

 

[weepiper]

O, this stuff about appearances is, to my mind, more shaded by class than gender, I know most working class parents put a lot of time and effort into how their children are presented. Middle class families (at least the ones I know) tend to be a lot more 'relaxed about standards (including, enragingly, the stressed issue of nits). I always felt judged as a poor parent.

Yes, 100%. I was (still am I suppose, it's hard to shake) hyper conscious about turning my kids out nicely, because I knew I was already being judged in a small town way for being on benefits with three kids under 5, I was fucked if I was going to give them any more ammunition by the kids having holes in their knees or trouser bottoms up round their ankles or grubby faces or whatever. And I would send them to their dad's in good condition clothes that fit, and he would send them back dressed in too small faded stuff because he didn't care, because he wasn't feeling the judgement in the same way.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I agree with this too.

Thinking about it though, I do think it's interesting how "what to wear" expectations are very gendered and some things that to me feel so obvious they're instinctive, don't register at all with Mr Thora.
So for example this morning Mr T dressed our daughter in jeans, a dark red long sleeved top and a pale yellow (Summer) cardigan. All clean and good condition and the right size. But I had to change her cardigan, the colour clash was too much. I doubt Mr Thora could identify the difference between a summer cardigan and a winter one
Which colours or patterns go together or clash is something I have clearly picked up and he hasn't. It's not important to him.
Athos is right that it absolutely shouldn't matter if the child is clean and comfortable, but to me it does.

I’d definitely wear a red top with a yellow cardigan!

RIght now I’m wearing a green top with a purple cardigan.

But I know loads of people, kids included, who don’t like that kind of thing at all. (One of my youngster friends used to really tell me off about my use of colour...)

 

[Athos]

But you were saying that women should drop their game to make it easier for everyone...

Not 'drop their game' so much as not hold themselves to such unnecessarily high standards. For themselves and each other mostly!

 

[kabbes]

This is where I’m glad I don’t have kids. I don’t buy myself clothes because I have no idea what does and doesn’t look good and don’t care either way. I wear stuff that I bought 15 years so that has holes in and has pulled and I don’t give a monkey’s what anybody thinks of me for it. I wouldn’t even know where to start in assessing the clothes of a child. If it fits and is clean, I’d consider that job done.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Not 'drop their game' so much as not hold themselves to such unnecessarily high standards. For themselves and each other mostly!

I prefer the idea of leveling-up, rather than leveling-down i.e. making women's lives easier, rather than men's harder (and not just for the obvious reason).

In which regard, maybe women - NAW, obviously - could take a little bit less care about their children's clothes/appearance, thus removing the pressure on themselves and each other (and, to a lesser extent, men)?

Was in two minds about posting that, as it sounds a bit 'victim-blamey', but I think it's worth acknowledging that women play a role in reinforcing some of these social attitudes, if we're to have any hope of change.

“Take a little less care ...” looks to me like dropping the game rather than dropping their standards.


But this isnt the point.

The point is that women (NAW) feel that they have to behave in certain ways because they are being judged while men (NAM) don’t, as a rule, have to factor that shit in to every single decision.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

This is where I’m glad I don’t have kids. I don’t buy myself clothes because I have no idea what does and doesn’t look good and don’t care either way. I wear stuff that I bought 15 years so that has holes in and has pulled and I don’t give a monkey’s what anybody thinks of me for it. I wouldn’t even know where to start in assessing the clothes of a child. If it fits and is clean, I’d consider that job done.

Well quite, but several women in this very thread have said that their men can’t even seem to achieve that basic standard (that it’s clean and it fits).

 

[Treacle Toes]

Of course the difference is, if he drops our child off to nursery with unbrushed hair, wearing their younger sibling's t-shirt with toothpaste down it, and clashing patterns - the staff will just chuckle "tough morning dad? Bless him, he tried! Mum having a lie-in?". No one would think it was cute if I did it
I know it's true because I instinctively have the same "give dad a break, at least he tried!" feelings whereas I would judge the mum who hasn't dressed her child well much more harshly. Even though on an intellectual level I hate the double standard. There's no reason at all why men can't take a little bit of care over their children's clothes/appearance and they should be judged for not being bothered.

For me, this is a very good personal example of this, posted by kabbes earlier...

^^ the above is Butler’s route into performativity within feminism, of course. By performing the roles allotted by society to women, a woman interpellates those roles and thus becomes them.

For me it is very much a 'nurture' thing and there is a drip, drip, drip effect that has us internalising and becoming/applying the double standards that we actually hate.

 

[Looby]

I prefer the idea of leveling-up, rather than leveling-down i.e. making women's lives easier, rather than men's harder (and not just for the obvious reason).

In which regard, maybe women - NAW, obviously - could take a little bit less care about their children's clothes/appearance, thus removing the pressure on themselves and each other (and, to a lesser extent, men)?

Was in two minds about posting that, as it sounds a bit 'victim-blamey', but I think it's worth acknowledging that women play a role in reinforcing some of these social attitudes, if we're to have any hope of change.

Fuck that! If you have enough clothes and the means to wash them, which many don’t, it’s a fairly basic thing to make sure your child is dressed in clothes that are clean, without holes and that fit. It’s not hard, it doesn’t need a ‘mother’s instinct’ it’s the bare minimum.

I know this is a fairly mundane example but I’m sick of women being told to lower their standards because the poor men just can’t live up to them.

 

[Athos]

The point is that women (NAW) feel that they have to behave in certain ways because they are being judged while men (NAM) don’t, as a rule, have to factor that shit in to every single decision.

Very obvious thing is obvious.

My point was that part* of the way out of that would be for women not to judge themselves (individually and collectively).

ETA *The other part being the role of men, obviously.

 

[Treacle Toes]

We all know the answer to that one, Athos. Because consumer capital, aspirational bollocks, etc. has been invested in an endless campaign to sell us stuff...which is deeply potent when shame, guilt, envy is leveraged to flog us shit (on which, for many of us, especially when we are lacking in social capital, becomes difficult to discard).

I'll take the shame/guilt angle a bit further...we are made to feel shame and guilt for being poor. Our poverty is consequently associated with our worth as people, our assumed intellect &capabilities. This is reinforced and institutionalised, we internalise it and we seek to escape it....it makes us feel ashamed to be alive. It causes existential angst and that to me is why the 'ideology of aspiration' has taken such a strong hold despite so many of us being quite happy with less and on an intellectual/conscious level knowing things 'shouldn't be' this way.

Edited to add...obvious thing being obvious...The patriarchy has the same dynamic in terms of women, their worth, what elements of 'femininity' are celebrated etc... so it isn't just for women not to judge or feel judged...women can't escape that process without men because without men patriarchy wouldn't exist as a 'thing'.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Very obvious thing is obvious.

My point was that part of the way out of that would be for women not to judge themselves (individually and collectively).

See Looby ’s reply immediately above .

 

[Athos]

Fuck that! If you have enough clothes and the means to wash them, which many don’t, it’s a fairly basic thing to make sure your child is dressed in clothes that are clean, without holes and that fit. It’s not hard, it doesn’t need a ‘mother’s instinct’ it’s the bare minimum.

I know this is a fairly mundane example but I’m sick of women being told to lower their standards because the poor men just can’t live up to them.

I've addressed the issue of clean clothes that fit and are in reasonable condition being a minimum, and explained that my objection is to some of the 'requirements' that go beyond that.

Women have far more to gain from lowering standards than men do; the standards aren't applied to men, currently!

 

[campanula]

I am interested to see where feminism is heading, after a fairly long absence (when I kinda lost any point of engagement and stopped feeling comfortable within the loosely affiliated women organisations and social/political groups I had been involved in...although, to be fair, I have been on a cowardly retreat from most forms of political engagement as I am very uncertain where alliances can be found or what foundation such potential alliances are built upon (iyswim). Plus, any attempt at dismantling the patriarchy must, out of necessity, be both inclusive and cognizant that it has been as oppressive and damaging to (wc) men...and that there are fundamental power inequalities which we can only challenge as a class.

 

[Looby]

I've addressed the issue of clean clothes that fit and are in reasonable condition being a minimum, and explained that my objection is to some of the 'requirements' that go beyond that.

Women have far more to gain from lowering standards than men do; the standards aren't applied to men, currently!

Then we work on making sure they are, not dropping them.
I know this is just about clothes but women get this shit all the time and I hear it from my friends in their relationships. ‘He never does x, so I stopped expecting/asking as it’s easier.’

 

[Athos]

Then we work on making sure they are, not dropping them.
I know this is just about clothes but women get this shit all the time and I hear it from my friends in their relationships. ‘He never does x, so I stopped expecting/asking as it’s easier.’

Why extend those standards to men when they are unnecessary and harmful - for the reasons set out above by e.g. campanula and Rutita1 - and disproportionately affect the working class - as explained by weepiper?

 

[Looby]

Why extend this standards to men when they are unnecessary and harmful - for the reasons set out above by e.g. campanula and Rutita1 - and disproportionately affect the working class - as explained by weepiper?

I absolutely agree with those posters who point out that these pressures disproportionately impact lower income households and that’s not really what I’m arguing. I don’t like the free pass thing, the ‘bless him, he tried’ and I agree with Thora that I probably do it too and then pick myself up on it. I guess my point is more general and it made my blood boil seeing women once again told the solution is to lower their standards.

I’ll back off because I’m grumpy.

 

[Athos]

I guess my point is more general and it made my blood boil seeing women once again told the solution is to lower their standards.

Part of the solution, insofar as those standards are one aspect of the patriarchy, by virtue of their unequal application in practice, and given that their application to men would have other negative consequences.

 

[campanula]

As for dropping standards, in anything, in a sort of race to the bottom - well, this spectacularly misses the point. The reason the more powerful class of men can dismiss the importance of stuff like cleaning, is precisely because these tasks are deemed worthless. Far from dropping standards, we, as a society, value them as intrinsically good things - tasks which require the highest competences, reliability, creativity, consistency...which requires some radical transformations in how we value domestic labour. Most especially in our relationships to the means of production, the ridiculous skewed values of 'the market', a re-evaluation of what is worthy (not what can be monetised by a plutocratic class ffs).

 

[Athos]

As for dropping standards, in anything, in a sort of race to the bottom - well, this spectacularly misses the point. The reason the more powerful class of men can dismiss the importance of stuff like cleaning, is precisely because these tasks are deemed worthless. Far from dropping standards, we, as a society, value them as intrinsically good things - tasks which require the highest competences, reliability, creativity, consistency...which requires some radical transformations in how we value domestic labour. Most especially in our relationships to the means of production, the ridiculous skewed values of 'the market', a re-evaluation of what is worthy (not what can be monetised by a plutocratic class ffs).

I agree with this to a large extent - that necessary reproductive labour should be esteemed and properly rewarded, which will only really happen outside the grip of capitalism. But, some of the standards we apply to one another don't have any intrinsic value; they're artefacts of capitalism. So we ought to give up on chasing them. That doesn't amount to a race to the bottom at all.

 

[kabbes]

Athos — whether the point you are making is right or wrong, you’re going to have to accept that such a fundamental shift in cultural values isn’t going to happen because a few people try to choose to do something differently. This isn’t something that happens on the individual level.

 

[Athos]

Athos — whether the point you are making is right or wrong, you’re going to have to accept that such a fundamental shift in cultural values isn’t going to happen because a few people try to choose to do something differently. This isn’t something that happens on the individual level.

I don't advocate just a few people choosing to try to do things differently on an individual level.

 

[campanula]

Hey Athos, I didn't bother with waxing my legs, following fashion, keeping up my home decor as a status symbol, buying into lifestyle choices/new sofas. But I still put a considered, valid and creative effort into raising my kids, maintaining good nutrition on a limited budget, looking out for my elderly neighbours, keeping the public green spaces clean... because these result in a net gain to society (while being ignored by financial markets). Caring and nurturing, putting other's needs in front of yours - this is being a decent human being (and socialist).
But yeah, this is often unrewarded, invisible and even derided. We really need a deep and broad transformative politics.

 

[Sue]

Hey Athos, I didn't bother with waxing my legs, following fashion, keeping up my home decor as a status symbol, buying into lifestyle choices/new sofas. But I still put a considered, valid and creative effort into raising my kids, maintaining good nutrition on a limited budget, looking out for my elderly neighbours, keeping the public green spaces clean... because these result in a net gain to society (while being ignored by financial markets). Caring and nurturing, putting other's needs in front of yours - this is being a decent human being (and socialist).

You sound like a monster, campanula .

 

[Athos]

Hey Athos, I didn't bother with waxing my legs, following fashion, keeping up my home decor as a status symbol, buying into lifestyle choices/new sofas. But I still put a considered, valid and creative effort into raising my kids, maintaining good nutrition on a limited budget, looking out for my elderly neighbours, keeping the public green spaces clean... because these result in a net gain to society (while being ignored by financial markets). Caring and nurturing, putting other's needs in front of yours - this is being a decent human being (and socialist).

I completely agree. And I'd hope nothing I've said would lead to think otherwise.