Feminism - where are the threads?

[Athos]

I think there is a lot of truth in that in some cases. In other cases, it’s just plain old self-identifying as not being the one that does stuff

Yes, I'm sure. And even leveraging sexist tropes like 'the nagging wife' or 'the man who gets it wrong because his mum never taught him' to bolster the status quo.

 

[Treacle Toes]

But even just making a joke like that just resets the patriarchal pattern.

Can’t you instead make a joke about how crap other men are for not doing it rather than taking the piss out of yourself for doing it?

I was going to post something similar but didn't because I just felt deflated about the missed opportunity for kabbes to reinforce the idea that other men 'need to/can' do more.

This isn't a personal attack on you kabbes I do though think there is a 'default' dynamic at play here and it's easy for us all to fall back into the kind of patriarchal thinking that masquerades as humour/light relief.

 

[Athos]

^ I'm not sure that applies in small flats/terraces where all space is shared and often cramped.

I don't know. I've got mates who live in small places in which their (female) partners choose the decor and do the lioness's share of the housework.

 

[chilango]

I don't know. I've got mates who live in small places in which their (female) partners choose the decor and do the lioness's share of the housework.

No, I meant in those spaces men (and women?) don't really get separate domains. There's no room for leaving anywhere a mess.

That it will still -usually - be the woman doing the cleaning I'm not doubting.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

My dad (non biological- he took me on cos he loved my mam) already had sons with his ex wife before I was born. He was submerged in traditional roles of being the breadwinner and had very little to do with the bringing up of his sons. When I was born he of course did not think he'd have to help out with my care, cos that was womens work. Now he's not a prick my dad, but that's all he knew. One time my mam went away and left me with him and he had to feed me, brush my hair, dress me and had no choice but to take me to the shops in my push chair. I remember him saying years later how awkward he had felt pushing a pushchair it had been embarrassing and emasculating for him. He explained how its more normal to see guys pushing a pushchair these days but when he was younger it was sure to get you ribbed terribly and stared at...also carrying flowers! Seemed so funny to me when he told me but even just talking about it, he was cringing and bristling. I do remember him cleaning a bit and baking sometimes in his time off. I guess he had to step up as my mam was only just out of her teens and didn't know how to do any of that herself. When I look back with all of my current knowledge I do feel empathy for them and the roles forced upon them. Things have moved on a little since then but nowhere near enough...I think that's why I'm so put off having relationships or living with men...as its one thing doing everything myself when I live alone with my boys but its a real source of sadness and frustration to have a guy there not helping( making more mess, giving me more mouths to feed and sgit to organise) and not understanding my frustration and tiredness carrying the whole burden of everything.
The absolutely least sexy thing a guy can do is nothing to help and then they wonder why its hard for us to wind down of an evening. Its not cos we don't like sex, its cos we're still in cleaner, cook, mam, housewife mode and we're knackered. Fuck that like.

My dad was given custody of me and my sister when we were really little. It was the late 60s and considered so unusual that the case actually made the papers. He was earning a decent wedge so he eventually hired a woman to live in and take care of us but I remember a long-ish period of time when it was just the three of us. Looking back, I think he was really depressed and really at sea. As immigrants, neither of my parents had a family support network and all their peers (other immigrants of the same age) were also going through their affairs, divorces, child custody battles etc so my dad was on his own with us. I remember I had to talk him through how to wash and brush my hair, how to help me get dressed etc. I was still too small to be able to do it myself or to do it for my sister, but we all learned really fast. And I remember him cooking and cleaning and struggling with that too. He ended up being a decent cook and housekeeper. Much later, when we were teenagers and he was dating, one of his girlfriends turned up unexpected on a Sunday evening. We were doing what we always did on a Sunday, Dad would iron the shirts he needed for the following week and anything we wanted ironed, and we’d be watching the telly, all of us taking the piss and chatting, having a laugh. We would have had supper cooked by Dad, and breakfast too (it was his way of ensuring we came home after being out on Saturday night). So this girlfriend turned up and we all felt a bit interrupted (Sunday was always just the three of us, visitors were always on other nights, never Sunday) and she offered to do the ironing. We three all exchanged secret glances in silence and Dad said “No” in a way that forever afterwards became a running joke, kinda like shocked she’d ask, weirded out by the offer, taken aback and trying not to hurt her feelings all at once.

So he’d traveled from being incompetent of domestic work and practical child care, to being confused by a woman offering to do his chores.

I probably learned as much about feminism from my dad as from anyone else around when I was growing up, maybe more now I think about it. A couple of my friends told me when he died that they considered him the first male feminist they’d encountered. I suppose that must have been informed to a significant degree by his being cast into the “woman’s role” by the divorce etc.

 

[Athos]

No, I meant in those spaces men (and women?) don't really get separate domains. There's no room for leaving anywhere a mess.

That it will still -usually - be the woman doing the cleaning I'm not doubting.

No, but I think many men will tolerate more mess, or at least claim to do so, confident that their partner will 'break' first, and clean up. Possibly because women are judged more on the standards of their homes than men are.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

No, but I think many men will tolerate more mess, or at least claim to do so, confident that their partner will 'break' first, and clean up. Possibly because women are judged more on the standards of their homes than men are.

When I was living with my LTP (not the vile one, the nice one) housework was one of the areas we clashed over, and this was one of the arguments he made: that it mattered less to him.

The instant he moved into his own place it suddenly mattered a great deal to him.

So was he dissembling when we lived together? Was he fooling himself, trying it on, what? Or did he somehow learn a new standard from me as a result of all the work I did around him?

When I went to stay with him for a week I told him I wasn’t going to lift a finger and he took good care of me. It was lovely. And when he was carrying yet another load of clean dry folded laundry up the stairs he said to me “Taking care of a house is quite a lot of work. I never realised before” , and that was his way of acknowledging and apologising for twenty years of taking my housework for granted.

 

[Athos]

When I was living with my LTP (not the vile one, the nice one) housework was one of the areas we clashed over, and this was one of the arguments he made: that it mattered less to him.

The instant he moved into his own place it suddenly mattered a great deal to him.

So was he dissembling when we lived together? Was he fooling himself, trying it on, what? Or did he somehow learn a new standard from me as a result of all the work I did around him?

When I went to stay with him for a week I told him I wasn’t going to lift a finger and he took good care of me. It was lovely. And when he was carrying yet another load of clean dry folded laundry up the stairs he said to me “Taking care of a house is quite a lot of work. I never realised before” , and that was his way of acknowledging and apologising for twenty years of taking my housework for granted.

Like a lot of things that aren't explicitly valued by capitalism (albeit important to it, as reproductive labour is), it's true value is only realised when it's lost or threatened. Like the environment, or simply spending 'non-productive' time with loved ones.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Individual cases are always going to be argued about. But there’s a lot of evidence that one way or other, men collectively massively fail to do their share of basic household chores.

Even during lockdown.

With men and women both at home, some things are being shared out more equally, yet still women are doing more of the work.

Coronavirus: 'Mums do most childcare and chores in lockdown'

A study suggests that the only situation in which dads pull their weight is if they're not working.

www.bbc.co.uk

How Covid-19 is changing women’s lives

As working mums perform more childcare and face increased job insecurity, there are fears Covid-19 has undone decades of advancement. But could the pandemic be a catalyst for progress?

www.bbc.com

Women’s and men’s work, housework and childcare, before and during COVID-19 - Review of Economics of the Household

Evidence from past economic crises indicates that recessions often affect men’s and women’s employment differently, with a greater impact on male-dominated sectors. The current COVID-19 crisis presents novel characteristics that have affected economic, health and social phenomena over wide...

link.springer.com

Women’s work, housework, and childcare before and during COVID-19

The social distancing measures adopted to slow the spread of COVID-19 have placed a particular burden on families. Using survey data collected in April 2020 from a representative sample of Italian women, this column asks how working from home – combined with school closures – has affected the...

voxeu.org

 

[chilango]

 

[Clair De Lune]

I think a lot of men struggle with their partners doing unrequested and 'nonessential'* stuff around the house, then complaining the men don't do it. They^ think: I'll do my share of the stuff that's necessary e.g. washing the kids' clothes (albeit they often don't, in practice), but, if you want clean windows, then clean them - I'm happy with them being grubby.

*I wonder how much of the perception about what's necessary is really internalised standards of a clean and tidy home that are expected of women, but don't apply to men in the same way. I think there's still an element of the home being the women's domain - both in terms of the freedom to choose decor and the burden of housework - whereas men can leave 'their' areas e.g. sheds, garages, offices, exactly as they want them.

^If I'm honest with myself, I sometimes catch myself thinking this.

There is some truth to this in the sense that two humans sharing a house, no matter their gender will find that different things niggle at them and something important to one, just isn't to the other. But I think when it comes to hetero partners another aspect is that men have not been taught from a young age to feel shame about not being well presented, clean & beautiful. They've also not been taught to feel shame or fear judgement if their home is not well presented, beautiful and clean. I think this explains why women care more as a rule about these standards of cleanliness...because actually you do get whispered about by neighbours or visitors if you don't adhere to these standards and it hurts us more because we are so primed for shame.
As much as I've tried to escape from and outgrow these internalised expectations ...if someone new is coming to my house I still feel I have to make it look much cleaner than I usually keep it. And its a relief when my friends are also a bit messy as it means I don't have to do that before they arrive.

 

[elbows]

Its also much easier to switch off, relax and indulge in me me me time when your expectations of responsibility are limited in time and space, and you dont have to spend almost every waking hours spinning plates. If the domains you are expected to maintain control and order over are diverse and numerous, its hardly surprising that there are less opportunities to switch off and chill. Compartmentalising doesnt really help if you still end up with responsibilities and chores in every compartment.

 

[Thora]

There is some truth to this in the sense that two humans sharing a house, no matter their gender will find that different things niggle at them and something important to one, just isn't to the other. But I think when it comes to hetero partners another aspect is that men have not been taught from a young age to feel shame about not being well presented, clean & beautiful. They've also not been taught to feel shame or fear judgement if their home is not well presented, beautiful and clean. I think this explains why women care more as a rule about these standards of cleanliness...because actually you do get whispered about by neighbours or visitors if you don't adhere to these standards and it hurts us more because we are so primed for shame.
As much as I've tried to escape from and outgrow these internalised expectations ...if someone new is coming to my house I still feel I have to make it look much cleaner than I usually keep it. And its a relief when my friends are also a bit messy as it means I don't have to do that before they arrive.

Me and Mr Thora are very equal in terms of housework and childcare, but I have always done all "clothes management" for the children. Not laundry so much as buying clothes, choosing what they will wear, checking it fits, getting rid of stuff with holes in.
I think he just genuinely has no interest in whether they are wearing clothes that are too big/small (so long as they vaguely fit), has the odd hole or stain or whether they look "nice".
I really do care, so I do it all.
Of course the difference is, if he drops our child off to nursery with unbrushed hair, wearing their younger sibling's t-shirt with toothpaste down it, and clashing patterns - the staff will just chuckle "tough morning dad? Bless him, he tried! Mum having a lie-in?". No one would think it was cute if I did it
I know it's true because I instinctively have the same "give dad a break, at least he tried!" feelings whereas I would judge the mum who hasn't dressed her child well much more harshly. Even though on an intellectual level I hate the double standard. There's no reason at all why men can't take a little bit of care over their children's clothes/appearance and they should be judged for not being bothered.

 

[Athos]

Me and Mr Thora are very equal in terms of housework and childcare, but I have always done all "clothes management" for the children. Not laundry so much as buying clothes, choosing what they will wear, checking it fits, getting rid of stuff with holes in.
I think he just genuinely has no interest in whether they are wearing clothes that are too big/small (so long as they vaguely fit), has the odd hole or stain or whether they look "nice".
I really do care, so I do it all.
Of course the difference is, if he drops our child off to nursery with unbrushed hair, wearing their younger sibling's t-shirt with toothpaste down it, and clashing patterns - the staff will just chuckle "tough morning dad? Bless him, he tried! Mum having a lie-in?". No one would think it was cute if I did it
I know it's true because I instinctively have the same "give dad a break, at least he tried!" feelings whereas I would judge the mum who hasn't dressed her child well much more harshly. Even though on an intellectual level I hate the double standard. There's no reason at all why men can't take a little bit of care over their children's clothes/appearance and they should be judged for not being bothered.

I prefer the idea of leveling-up, rather than leveling-down i.e. making women's lives easier, rather than men's harder (and not just for the obvious reason).

In which regard, maybe women - NAW, obviously - could take a little bit less care about their children's clothes/appearance, thus removing the pressure on themselves and each other (and, to a lesser extent, men)?

Was in two minds about posting that, as it sounds a bit 'victim-blamey', but I think it's worth acknowledging that women play a role in reinforcing some of these social attitudes, if we're to have any hope of change.

 

[weepiper]

I prefer the idea of leveling-up, rather than leveling-down i.e. making women's lives easier, rather than men's harder (and not just for the obvious reason).

In which regard, maybe women - NAW, obviously - could take a little bit less care about their children's clothes/appearance, thus removing the pressure on themselves and each other (and, to a lesser extent, men)?

Was in two minds about posting that, as it sounds a bit 'victim-blamey', but I think it's worth acknowledging that women play a role in reinforcing some of these social attitudes, if we're to have any hope of change.

No. Caring about your children's appearance is part of looking after them properly. Leaving them in clothes massively too small or frayed or dirty because you can't be arsed is neglect and gets them picked on at school, never mind society judging you for it. Men need to pull the finger out.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I prefer the idea of leveling-up, rather than leveling-down i.e. making women's lives easier, rather than men's harder (and not just for the obvious reason).

In which regard, maybe women - NAW, obviously - could take a little bit less care about their children's clothes/appearance, thus removing the pressure on themselves and each other (and, to a lesser extent, men)?

Was in two minds about posting that, as it sounds a bit 'victim-blamey', but I think it's worth acknowledging that women play a role in reinforcing some of these social attitudes, if we're to have any hope of change.

It’s not victim-blames mate, it’s just really weird.

It’s like a Viz TopTip.

Mums! Create more spare time and energy in your life by allowing your kids to go around in their jimjams all day! They’ll be ready for bed more easily too!

 

[Athos]

No. Caring about your children's appearance is part of looking after them properly. Leaving them in clothes massively too small or frayed or dirty because you can't be arsed is neglect and gets them picked on at school, never mind society judging you for it. Men need to pull the finger out.

Of course, I agree nobody should get away with leaving kids in dirty clothes that are far too small and full of holes etc., but I didn't get the impression that was what Thora was talking about; she mentioned toothpaste, unbrushed hair and clashing patterns. Maybe we'd all be better letting those lesser 'infractions' slide, rather than judging one another.

 

[Athos]

It’s not victim-blames mate, it’s just really weird.

It’s like a Viz TopTip.

Mums! Create more spare time and energy in your life by allowing your kids to go around in their jimjams all day! They’ll be ready for bed more easily too!

It is when you take it far beyond what I actually said!

 

[Thora]

No. Caring about your children's appearance is part of looking after them properly. Leaving them in clothes massively too small or frayed or dirty because you can't be arsed is neglect and gets them picked on at school, never mind society judging you for it. Men need to pull the finger out.

Yeah, I mean my children are currently dressed in joggers from Asda, tops I bought second hand, hand me down jumpers - I'm not saying they need to be dressed head to toe in Joules or whatever.
But clean, the right size, matching, weather appropriate, clean faces, hair tied up neatly.
Things I have laughed about dads doing (not Mr Thora though!) with other mums this week - toddler's leggings on back to front, 5yo wearing yesterday's skid-marked pants, dad "can't" put daughter's hair in a pony tail, no idea Christmas jumper day was a thing. It's basics.

 

[Thora]

Of course, I agree nobody should get away with leaving kids in dirty clothes that are far too small and full of holes etc., but I didn't get the impression that was what Thora was talking about; she mentioned toothpaste, unbrushed hair and clashing patterns. Maybe we'd all be better letting those lesser 'infractions' slide, rather than judging one another.

I do think clean, hair brushed and not looking like a clown are minimum standards to be honest.

 

[Thora]

I could probably let the clashing patterns thing go though

 

[Athos]

I do think clean, hair brushed and not looking like a clown are minimum standards to be honest.

I struggle to meet those standards for myself, to be fair.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Of course, I agree nobody should get away with leaving kids in dirty clothes that are far too small and full of holes etc., but I didn't get the impression that was what Thora was talking about; she mentioned toothpaste, unbrushed hair and clashing patterns. Maybe we'd all be better letting those lesser 'infractions' slide, rather than judging one another.

Kids can be terribly bullied by their schoolmates for this kind of thing.

 

[chilango]

I dress my daughter everyday. Get her clothes out (which I washed etc.), lay them out on the radiator before she gets up so they're nice and warm when she puts them on. I make sure she's all buttoned up properly, tucked in, straighten her tie all that stuff. I brush her hair, (though Mum does the "styling", having a shaved head for last 20 years is, I think, a legit excuse for passing on that task. I did have to watch a YouTube video on plaiting hair though when my wife was away with work!).

I do this stuff, routinely, and couldn't imagine not doing it.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

And I can personally attest that kids who are grubby and scruffy can end up feeling really alone and neglected and uncared for.





PS
Thanks for the sad face sympathy xx But it did turn out okay in the end because it made me much more independent of standard fashion and forced me to develop my own style and hang the consequences! And I took my revenge by repurposing my dad’s old suits etc. Met someone recently who remembered me glamming around in oversized men’s suits and a skirt I made with his 1970s ties...

 

[chilango]

Kids can be terribly bullied by their schoolmates for this kind of thing.

...and teachers notice, it sets alarm bells ringing

 

[campanula]

O, this stuff about appearances is, to my mind, more shaded by class than gender, I know most working class parents put a lot of time and effort into how their children are presented. Middle class families (at least the ones I know) tend to be a lot more 'relaxed about standards (including, enragingly, the stressed issue of nits). I always felt judged as a poor parent. And on a very dissonant note, it was usually other woman doing the judging. I absolutely struggled with this feeling of betrayal and loss of sisterhood as the emphasis, within the loosely affiliated women's movement I had been involved in throughout the mid 70s and 80s, really started to erode a sense of commonality.

 

[Athos]

Kids can be terribly bullied by their schoolmates for this kind of thing.

In my experience, kids who need to be dressed aren't in the age group where that sort of bullying is a thing. But, even if they were, where do you think the bullies get the idea that these things matter? You point only reinforces mine: we'd all be better letting those lesser 'infractions' slide, rather than judging one another.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I dress my daughter everyday. Get her clothes out (which I washed etc.), lay them out on the radiator before she gets up so they're nice and warm when she puts them on. I make sure she's all buttoned up properly, tucked in, straighten her tie all that stuff. I brush her hair, (though Mum does the "styling", having a shaved head for last 20 years is, I think, a legit excuse for passing on that task. I did have to watch a YouTube video on plaiting hair though when my wife was away with work!).

I do this stuff, routinely, and couldn't imagine not doing it.

With sufficient time etc I suppose it’s a really lovely way to interact in an intimate and loving way with your child.

Like monkeys grooming, or something.

 

[chilango]

With sufficient time etc I suppose it’s a really lovely way to interact in an intimate and loving way with your child.

Like monkeys grooming, or something.

Yeah.

I've (almost) always done since she was only a couple of months old, so it's pretty normalised for me.

TBF I'm also the one making breakfast, packed lunches, finding keys, etc etc. for wife and daughter before waving them off at the doorstep in my PJs collapsing on the sofa straight after with a mug of tea before then getting myself ready!