Feminism - where are the threads?

[Edie]

Edie - that might have been worth a new thread rather than tacking onto this one.

But I think it’s linked to what I’ve been talking about isn’t it?

 

[8ball]

But I think it’s linked to what I’ve been talking about isn’t it?

Oh, sure. I just think it deserves a thread focussing on that point particularly.

 

[Edie]

I don’t think a female scientist doing well is what they’re getting at tbf. It’s more to do with having women as PM for example - as a direct result of May’s policies women are dying. And she dares to wear a t-shirt claiming to be feminist? Man or woman at the top, it doesn’t move us on overall.

Science (along with politics, the media, the arts, pretty much all else) was a Default Man dominated thing. And science- and ideas about how the world works- and design and technology and stem and a world by and for Default Man is very much what we’ve been talking about?

 

[8ball]

Science (along with politics, the media, the arts, pretty much all else) was a Default Man dominated thing. And science- and ideas about how the world works- and design and technology and stem and a world by and for Default Man is very much what we’ve been talking about?

I think the arts hasn’t been quite so DM-dominated for a while (in terms of a mental picture of what an artist looks like, I mean), but that would be my only quibble.

This also touches heavily on that thread about so much stuff basically ending up designed for a different (more physical and statistically average) kind of “Default Man”.

As well as relating to a whole bunch of political stuff. Too big for just one thread to itself, really.

 

[Athos]

Science (along with politics, the media, the arts, pretty much all else) was a Default Man dominated thing. And science- and ideas about how the world works- and design and technology and stem and a world by and for Default Man is very much what we’ve been talking about?

Isn't that the other threat, though? 'Feminism and a world designed for men'

 

[8ball]

Isn't that the other threat, though? 'Feminism and a world designed for men'

Still a good topic. Though could go a bit “P&P”, so phrasing the OP carefully would help.

 

[Edie]

Isn't that the other threat, though? 'Feminism and a world designed for men'

Oh am I getting my threats/threads muddled up? Sorry. I suppose I used the example of scientists cos they weren’t obviously “in power” like politicians or CEOs but they have power (in ideas and design) that still exists and is real? That’s kind of what I’m trying to say.

 

[kabbes]

There’s a big difference between the importance of increasing female representation in STEM and having a (lone) woman in a position of political power. The former is about opportunities for women generally, the latter is just about who the boss is and does nothing for wider opportunity. After all, Elizabeth I was the unchallenged ruler of an empire with the power to do whatever she wanted over 400 years ago, but that hardly spoke to general female emancipation, did it?

 

[Edie]

So my point is, maybe there is purpose in celebrating individual women, to change the Default Male status quo, in a way that isn’t just about propping up neoliberalism.

 

[Athos]

So my point is, maybe there is purpose in celebrating individual women, to change the Default Male status quo, in a way that isn’t just about propping up neoliberalism.

I certainly think so.

 

[Edie]

There’s a big difference between the importance of increasing female representation in STEM and having a (lone) woman in a position of political power. The former is about opportunities for women generally, the latter is just about who the boss is and does nothing for wider opportunity. After all, Elizabeth I was the unchallenged ruler of an empire with the power to do whatever she wanted over 400 years ago, but that hardly spoke to general female emancipation, did it?

Absolutely, and I do get the point that
there’s no point legalising abortion, if the majority of women can’t afford even basic healthcare let alone a termination. Or that wage inequality is meaningless without a living wage because your still hand to mouth. That the underlying structure has to be changed to make true equality meaningful.

I guess as a woman I wonder that even if that happened, we had a Revolution to get rid of capitalism and provide a living wage and healthcare access, whether men would still be in charge. I’m just cynical.

 

[Athos]

Absolutely, and I do get the point that
there’s no point legalising abortion, if the majority of women can’t afford even basic healthcare let alone a terminal. Or that wage inequality is meaningless without a living wage because your still hand to mouth. That the underlying structure has to be changed to make true equality meaningful.

I guess as a woman I wonder that even if that happened, we had a Revolution to get rid of capitalism and provide a living wage and healthcare access, whether men would still be in charge. I’m just cynical.

I suppose it depends on whether you think it's an inevitable part of the human condition that all societies everywhere have always been and will always be patriarchal.

 

[Edie]

I suppose it depends on whether you think it's an inevitable part of the human condition that all societies everywhere have always been and will always be patriarchal.

Capitalism didn’t invent the subordination of women

 

[Athos]

Capitalism didn’t invent the subordination of women

No, but that's not the quite the same point. It's hard to see how true equality can exist under capitalism, whereas the end of capitalism offers opportunities for it. But I think it's important we don't take it for granted, or that we think it's pointless working to improve things in the meantime. The end if capitalism is a necessary but not sufficient condition for perfect equality. But we needn't wait for perfection to bring about improvements. Whereas, having an ultimate goal of equality under capitalism is a fool's errand.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I suppose it depends on whether you think it's an inevitable part of the human condition that all societies everywhere have always been and will always be patriarchal.

Not all societies everywhere have always been patriarchal. So it’s not inevitable.

 

[Athos]

Not all societies everywhere have always been patriarchal. So it’s not inevitable.

I agree.

 

[Orang Utan]

That's it then lads, just suck it all up and shut your mouths.
Life is good, with a penis. Women say so, and women are always right.

I may be retiring from these boards today.

See ya

 

[Edie]

See ya

That post by mojo pixy just made me laugh Here we are trying to have a talk about the structural oppression of women and how our labour is exploited, and then there’s that post lol.

 

[Athos]

friendofdorothy

The Van Dyke one is an actual arrow though...

Points-to-the-Dick Van Dyke

 

[mango5]

Not all societies everywhere have always been patriarchal. So it’s not inevitable.

Not inevitable in terms of the human condition, but seemingly inevitable under overwhelmingly dominant global Capitalism, and certainly a minority of societies historically.
It's why a society accommodating non-default man, or a society designed by/for women is the preserve of artists (Gramsci mentioned some examples upthread). imo the latter is a thought experiment largely useful as a distraction from material reality.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Not inevitable in terms of the human condition, but seemingly inevitable under overwhelmingly dominant global Capitalism, and certainly a minority of societies historically.
It's why a society accommodating non-default man, or a society designed by/for women is the preserve of artists (Gramsci mentioned some examples upthread). imo the latter is a thought experiment largely useful as a distraction from material reality.

So we’re back to the necessity to dismantle capitalism. I’m all for that, but how on earth do we go about it.

 

[mango5]

Ain't going to happen There won't be equality until it's enforced by environmental collapse and everyone's lives will be shitter than now. Even then it's a long shot cos those top-of-the-pyramid fellas have 99% of the global population by the short and curlies. We know how that turns out for women every time

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Ain't going to happen There won't be equality until it's enforced by environmental collapse and everyone's lives will be shitter than now. Even then it's a long shot cos those top-of-the-pyramid fellas have 99% of the global population by the short and curlies. We know how that turns out for women every time

 

[TopCat]

Not sure how effective those beards are at signposting to the penis but some I think some of those definitely mark the wearer as a prick.

What a cunt.

 

[campanula]

I’m all for that, but how on earth do we go about it.

patiently, incrementally, laterally. Within the limits of our capabilities. While I recognise the limiting restrictions of patriarchal power, I have not felt totally powerless myself. After all, I have had an enormous and influential role as a parent, to raise my children, however hopelessly mediated, to be different, better people than my own parents....particularly my embittered and abusive father. The shaping of young minds, through daily interaction has been a fundamental aspect of my own competence and sense of power. Solidarity, co-operation, mutuality, empathy...these are sometimes dismissed as self-indulgent and even smug modes of being...but networks of support, small scale neighbourhood autonomy, local actions, friendships, families, communities...while they can be divisive and easily exploited, I find they are also maneagable, accessible and have always held me up when the bureaucratic fumbling of parliamentary politics is just a distant pfffft.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

patiently, incrementally, laterally. Within the limits of our capabilities. While I recognise the limiting restrictions of patriarchal power, I have not felt totally powerless myself. After all, I have had an enormous and influential role as a parent, to raise my children, however hopelessly mediated, to be different, better people than my own parents....particularly my embittered and abusive father. The shaping of young minds, through daily interaction has been a fundamental aspect of my own competence and sense of power. Solidarity, co-operation, mutuality, empathy...these are sometimes dismissed as self-indulgent and even smug modes of being...but networks of support, small scale neighbourhood autonomy, local actions, friendships, families, communities...while they can be divisive and easily exploited, I find they are also maneagable, accessible and have always held me up when the bureaucratic fumbling of parliamentary politics is just a distant pfffft.

As you say, all that humdrum daily grind of raising up the kids, making choices about how the pennies are spent, all the emotional labour that holds families and extended social groups together, all that falls largely to the women. And yet the power structures are controlled by the men/Default Man/ the patriarchy.

Qualifier: not all men, not all women etc.

 

[Sue]

What a cunt.

What?

 

[mango5]

On a side note I really dislike the way that people who get the shitty end of the stick in society are the ones who are expected to come up with solutions from a position of low power and resources and will therefore have a far harder job to get anything agreed let alone done

 

[SheilaNaGig]

What a cunt.

Erm...

What’s the issue.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

On a side note I really dislike the way that people who get the shitty end of the stick in society are the ones who are expected to come up with solutions from a position of low power and resources and will therefore have a far harder job to get anything agreed let alone done

Well yes, but of course those who hold power don’t see it as a problem. So they’re not much minded to bring the changes.