I dunno man, when some people who were on the ground during a fatal crush say the story is different to the one the venue and police put out in the immediate aftermath of the crush, I think it might be a good idea to maybe listen to them instead of doubling down. Considering the history of that kind of thing.
Fatalities and critical injuries at Asake concert crush at the Brixton Academy
- Thread starter DietCokeGirl
- Start date
editor
hiraethified
I dunno man, maybe you should have a reread about what other people said on social media at the time, and maybe revisit that video where a guy's boasting about how he got in with a ticket.
I've already stated that I think that multiple factors were responsible but your attempt to shoehorn it into an exact rerun of Hillsborough are really simplistic.
story
Changing the facts
You can’t hear the music outside the front door of the the Academy. If you’re standing right by one of the doors much further down the side alley you can a bit, if you listen for it, but not on the front steps. There are two large lobbies between the auditorium and the street.
I'm not doing that. I'm just saying in the light of things like Hillsborough and the confused picture in the immediate aftermath of events like this, it might be wise to be sceptical of the initial reports and narratives pushed by people who stand to gain from it being someone else's fault.
editor
hiraethified
Yet you're the one who seems to have pursued a single conclusion from the very start.
It’s all speculation anyway.
but then there is speculation on the videos.
Did they or didn’t they have tickets?
Fuck knows tbh.
true. and maybe they were faked. I reckon probably all off-duty coppers trying to get in.
story
Changing the facts
I reckon it will have been a confluence of factors with some kind of trigger moment rather than one big bad thing that led to an inevitable outcome.
The cold will have made people impatient and eager to be not stuck outside.
It’s likely that there were fake tickets, also likely that some people had no ticket.
Sometimes at the Academy - especially when there’s a predominantly Black audience - crowds gather outside just to be there, as part of the event. Ziggy Marley and Burning Spear both had peaceful gatherings of people outside the venue. Police tend to go a bit gently-gently on these events for historic reasons.
I wonder what proportion of this crowd has much gig going experience. Going to gigs (or any other mass cultural event) demands and expects certain behaviours. I wouldn’t have a clue about what the general crowd culture is like at a rugby match or at Glyndbourne. Plus, I’ve noticed that 2 years of lockdown seems to have made a big difference to crowd etiquette. As if the chain of learning from others has glitched. If the door security (who are there a lot) were expecting the crowd to behave a certain way and they didn’t, then maybe there was a breakdown in the dialogue and dynamic between crew and crowd.
Normally, door and street security at the Academy is really good. I go there a lot and there are always plenty of people, at every point from barrier to inner door, all being efficient and professional, checking tickets and bags quickly. It’s a well oiled machine. I can’t believe that the house changed their protocols for this particular night. That makes no sense. But they may have had a few people call in sick, or too many rookies, or they may have been a touch complacent because they’ve never had an issue like this before.
Asake has blown up recently and obvs needs a bigger venue but I can’t see how realistic it would have been to pull these shows and book a larger venue, sell enough tickets for that, make Academy ticket valid for that show etc…. . Maybe they should have booked another couple of nights at the Academy but that may have been impossible for scheduling reasons.
I don’t think there was any way to anticipate this disaster so I don’t think it makes sense to say they should have delayed the show. That would have potentially pissed people off inside the auditorium.
Other points - like how a rush at the back compounds at the front, crowds being like fluids etc, all that’s true too.
I think this was probably one of those awful perfect storm situations, with a recipe of different things that accumulated. I don’t think we’re going to find a single fault that caused it.
That‘s no comfort at all, and it creates a situation where the need to find a scapegoat increases. Whether that ends up being the house, the crew, the crowd or some other thing remains to be seen. My worry is that instead of cracking down on fake tickets we end up with ever more draconian door policies, barrier policies and funnelling of crowds. That would be shit not only because it impinges on freedoms but also because the more you impose control on groups of people, the less agency and autonomy individual people experience, and the risk of crowd-as-mindless-entity increases. People treated like cattle at the street side of the venue are more likely to behave like cattle once they’re inside. (This is not science, it‘s based on my own obvs and exps over many years of being in gig and festival crowds.)
Over and above everything else though, I feel horrible about this needless death. There will also be residual trauma for others who were in the crowd, and my heart goes out to them too,
The cold will have made people impatient and eager to be not stuck outside.
It’s likely that there were fake tickets, also likely that some people had no ticket.
Sometimes at the Academy - especially when there’s a predominantly Black audience - crowds gather outside just to be there, as part of the event. Ziggy Marley and Burning Spear both had peaceful gatherings of people outside the venue. Police tend to go a bit gently-gently on these events for historic reasons.
I wonder what proportion of this crowd has much gig going experience. Going to gigs (or any other mass cultural event) demands and expects certain behaviours. I wouldn’t have a clue about what the general crowd culture is like at a rugby match or at Glyndbourne. Plus, I’ve noticed that 2 years of lockdown seems to have made a big difference to crowd etiquette. As if the chain of learning from others has glitched. If the door security (who are there a lot) were expecting the crowd to behave a certain way and they didn’t, then maybe there was a breakdown in the dialogue and dynamic between crew and crowd.
Normally, door and street security at the Academy is really good. I go there a lot and there are always plenty of people, at every point from barrier to inner door, all being efficient and professional, checking tickets and bags quickly. It’s a well oiled machine. I can’t believe that the house changed their protocols for this particular night. That makes no sense. But they may have had a few people call in sick, or too many rookies, or they may have been a touch complacent because they’ve never had an issue like this before.
Asake has blown up recently and obvs needs a bigger venue but I can’t see how realistic it would have been to pull these shows and book a larger venue, sell enough tickets for that, make Academy ticket valid for that show etc…. . Maybe they should have booked another couple of nights at the Academy but that may have been impossible for scheduling reasons.
I don’t think there was any way to anticipate this disaster so I don’t think it makes sense to say they should have delayed the show. That would have potentially pissed people off inside the auditorium.
Other points - like how a rush at the back compounds at the front, crowds being like fluids etc, all that’s true too.
I think this was probably one of those awful perfect storm situations, with a recipe of different things that accumulated. I don’t think we’re going to find a single fault that caused it.
That‘s no comfort at all, and it creates a situation where the need to find a scapegoat increases. Whether that ends up being the house, the crew, the crowd or some other thing remains to be seen. My worry is that instead of cracking down on fake tickets we end up with ever more draconian door policies, barrier policies and funnelling of crowds. That would be shit not only because it impinges on freedoms but also because the more you impose control on groups of people, the less agency and autonomy individual people experience, and the risk of crowd-as-mindless-entity increases. People treated like cattle at the street side of the venue are more likely to behave like cattle once they’re inside. (This is not science, it‘s based on my own obvs and exps over many years of being in gig and festival crowds.)
Over and above everything else though, I feel horrible about this needless death. There will also be residual trauma for others who were in the crowd, and my heart goes out to them too,
An excellent post.
Thank you
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I think this is a good point. It seems to have prompted changes in behaviour in various contexts, not just gig crowds.
And two years is quite a long time at formative gig-going age.
Not unusual to learn from one's own mistakes about what kind of interaction with door staff results in a good outcome for example. Including scenarios where door staff are behaving badly... And vice versa.
Fair point - I think one of the other things that has changed post-pandemic is how easy it is to staff these kinds of events - with suitably trained and experienced staff, but also really at all: everyone I know working in hospitality is really struggling to staff their venues fully.
It feels like there's been an uptick in fatal crush events in the last year, and at least some of them are down to post pandemic staffing issues - probably behavioural changes are involved with those too
It feels like there's been an uptick in fatal crush events in the last year, and at least some of them are down to post pandemic staffing issues - probably behavioural changes are involved with those too
Miss-Shelf
I'll meet you further on up the road
agree that there doesn't feel like there are adequate levels of staff in venues (and hospitality) at the moment
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
Can't help there either - it's all, picnics and champagne in the grounds of a Sussex country house, surely.
East Sussex-wise the comparable event might be Lewis Bonfire Night - which seems to have managed for years with light-touch policing. But it is outside. Even so a lot of the shops get boarded up - presumably there is a risk of windows being stoved in by crowd pressure.
I used to regularly go to the Proms which has incredibly organised queuing.
There was one occasion where there was a major unexpected delay holding up thousands in the queue - 9/11 second concert. Obviously everyone was well aware this was not some sort of gratuitous inefficiency.
PursuedByBears
Go stick your head in a pig
Gabrielle Hutchinson, 23, was working in a security role at the venue on the night of an Asake gig, the Metropolitan police said. The article says that the three who were criticaly injured were all in the foyer of the building.
editor
hiraethified
Ms Ordinary
randompointlesschemistry
So awful, and sounds like it must have been absolutely fucking terrifying for the people trapped in the foyer.
Still important to remember that the people outside won't have known how bad it was in there - whether or not they should have turned up in the first place is a completely separate matter.
Still important to remember that the people outside won't have known how bad it was in there - whether or not they should have turned up in the first place is a completely separate matter.
editor
hiraethified
I was at a sold out show at the Academy two weeks and we had a bit of hassle getting the guest passes sorted, but the young staff were really friendly and helpful. It's hard to imagine how terrifying it must have been for them at this show.
I fear that the Academy's going to be closed for some time now.
I fear that the Academy's going to be closed for some time now.
Ms Ordinary
randompointlesschemistry
Yes - there's a high demand for events, and not enough staff of all kinds for various reasons.
My daughter's 23 & while on UC recently she's been offered security type jobs that she's in no way qualified for (training provided etc, but it still seems to indicate a lot of places are desperate for staff).
Ms Ordinary
randompointlesschemistry
Really good points there, and plenty of people on this forum have gathered spontaneously (in Brixton & elsewhere) to be part of the crowd & part of the vibe, at demos, celebrations, free parties, festivals, squat parties - many people here know a little bit about how to read a crowd at demo & slip off before being kettled etc, but you can still be a corner away from a potential crush situation & not know its happening.
Ms Ordinary
randompointlesschemistry
I've seen at one video, made before it was clear there was a tragedy occurring, where a guy is cheekily boasting he got in for free - from the comments below, it looks like he just meant he was on the guest list, not "storming the doors" - so be careful what you assume even from a video. (We may well not be referring to the same video, of course)
AverageJoe
...
Unless you're Guns and Roses
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