8ball
Decolonise colons!
Sneaking in a side gate and risking a belting from the bouncers, yeah, but I think it's different when it comes to forcing your way into somewhere that is already full.
Fatalities and critical injuries at Asake concert crush at the Brixton Academy
- Thread starter DietCokeGirl
- Start date
Sneaking in a side gate and risking a belting from the bouncers, yeah, but I think it's different when it comes to forcing your way into somewhere that is already full.
moochedit
I'm not feeding seagulls
Would you say the same about a 19 year old boy racer?
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
I didn’t join a huge crowd attempting to storm into a full to capacity venue, no.
plurker
tú no tienes la culpa mi amor que el mundo sea feo
The promoter and venue should be discussing these things in the run in to the event, briefing a week or so out on any points of concern (historic crowd behaviours, any history of x y or z etc)
With three sold out nights at 4k cap, it's clear the artist has immense popularity, but as you say that kind of crowd action couldn't really be predicted imo. The Academy, and many other venues, run fully s/o events all the time with no problem
What we don't know is how many of those outside and pushing in had legit tickets but were kept out as the venue was full, had no tickets at all, or bought on secondary from tout/Viagogo types.
What we don't want is any knee-jerk crap from licensing like the return of the 696 form, but perhaps a focus on cracking down on secondary market ticketing.
A terrible event, and I feel sorry for all concerned - every venue/artist/promoter's nightmare.
RIEP Rebecca.
Hmm...your arguments seem to contradict each other.
Spandex
A crazy bulbous punchbag of sound
How so?
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I don't think 19 year olds should be let anywhere near cars that are appealing to race on public roads.Would you say the same about a 19 year old boy racer?
But also the risks involved in car racing are rather more obvious and direct.
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Well, you seem to say that this person is extremely popular in a way that is distinct from all other artists that have played there recently. And therefore the crowd (and their behaviour?) was in some way predictable, in a way that is exculpatory of them.
Yet, you also conclude that this was probably not foreseeable to the promoters/star, again in a way that is fairly exculpatory of them too.
Before saying that “the authorities” should be the real focus here.
Either we live in a world where all this was predictable (and it’s not the crowd’s fault) or we live in a world where this was not foreseeable (in which case the promoters/star can hardly be blamed).
But I don’t think we can live in a world where both of those things are true and determinative at the same time.
I wonder if this is in some way a tech<>behaviour problem. E-tickets are reproducible and therefore can proliferate much more easily. If you have some token in hand that you’ve got from some random WhatsApp group, does that stimulate attempts to get in that wouldn’t happen without physical tickets?
My hunch is the answer is yes.
In which case, expect more of this sort of thing until people take it all a bit more seriously .
My hunch is the answer is yes.
In which case, expect more of this sort of thing until people take it all a bit more seriously .
Spandex
A crazy bulbous punchbag of sound
I was giving a hot take on how it happened, not looking to apportion blame.
Asake's popularity has grown in recent months following the release of his album and current tour. He's gone from popular afrobeats artist to big star. It's possible Brixton Academy was the right size venue when the tour was initially booked, but by the day of the tragedy was too small to cope.
Asake did tweet, probably at the request of his team or the promoters, before the event asking people not to come down and try to get in. Other fans said they expected crowds. So crowds were predicted and something - obviously not enough with retrospect - was done in an to attempt to mitigate it.
I deliberately left how predictable this was to "the authorities" - Lambeth Council and the local Police - as a question. Should the Council/local Police know about the current popularity of someone playing at the Academy? Should the Academy know and notify them? Did they? Could anyone have expected the size of the crowd that led to a crush? Was some kind of risk assessment carried out which concluded it was fine to go ahead as planned? Did it come as a complete surprise? What rumours were circulating that caused so many people to turn up in the hope of getting in? I don't know the answer to any of this. I suspect these questions are being asked by the venue, council and police.
That's a very binary way of looking at it: all this was foreseeable or all of it wasn't. It's possible for a crowd to be predictable but not the size or impact of the crowd until it was too late to do anything but try and cope with the situation.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Are you 19?
Would you try to get into a venue sans ticket, with hundreds of others? The intent presumably to rush security, overwelm and get in. I mean you're not all thinking you're gonna sneak past or blag your way in.
Same sort of mentality as those pricks at Wembly last year. Except that was football, so no one made excuses for them.
jimbarkanoodle
Well-Known Member
Awful that there has been a fatality, no one should go for a night out and not come home.
Interesting take on this Guardian article. Mostly blaming the venue, which has one of strictest doors in the whole of London.
Very conflicting views, apparently there was no barricades or barriers or security, but the same person goes onto say they were hemmed in against barricades, and then security helped them and told them it would be safer to leave the area. And then a lawyer (who probably wasn't there) complaining that there was no security telling people to go home. I would have thought that would be obvious to those outside without a ticket, but i doubt they would have listened.
No doubt there will be a license review of the venue, but what more can they do, apart from expect people to form an orderly queue?
www.theguardian.com
Interesting take on this Guardian article. Mostly blaming the venue, which has one of strictest doors in the whole of London.
Very conflicting views, apparently there was no barricades or barriers or security, but the same person goes onto say they were hemmed in against barricades, and then security helped them and told them it would be safer to leave the area. And then a lawyer (who probably wasn't there) complaining that there was no security telling people to go home. I would have thought that would be obvious to those outside without a ticket, but i doubt they would have listened.
No doubt there will be a license review of the venue, but what more can they do, apart from expect people to form an orderly queue?
Witnesses to Brixton concert crush say many fans outside had tickets
One concertgoer claims security guards ‘kettled’ fans into a confined space outside Asake gig
No doubt there will be a license review of the venue, but what more can they do, apart from expect people to form an orderly queue?
Witnesses to Brixton concert crush say many fans outside had tickets
One concertgoer claims security guards ‘kettled’ fans into a confined space outside Asake gig
I guess the answer is some form of zigzagging before you get to the door itself. People get closer to getting in while facing away from the venue.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
We've no idea what everyone in that crowd was thinking or intending or what persuaded them it was worth showing up without a ticket. No doubt there was a mixture.
But even for someone (or a group) whose plan was to try and rush security - that might be a stupid plan for many reasons, and it might be a plan that they would know had certain risks - but my question is whether it's a plan that we can reasonably assume they appreciated had a risk of causing what happened on this occasion. I think the risks they might have had in mind would be things like getting into a fight with security, or getting arrested for something or the other. I don't think it would be reasonable to assume they had read the academic literature on crowd behaviour and fully appreciated that some actions that might seem limited in effect to the people carrying them out can actually lead to very serious consequences for others in a crowd.
Like others, most of my most alarming crowd experiences have been at Carnival. And a few of those have involved a bunch of kids rushing an already crowded area. It mostly just creates a few moments of panic or pushing. I'm sure those kids do it to get a reaction but I don't think they are doing it with the possibility that someone could be killed as a result in mind. I'd really rather they didn't do it but if something bad did happen as a result, the extent to which I'd hold them directly responsible would be limited. It would be something ultimately created by the decision to hold a large, very crowded and loosely controlled event. The issue would be more about how aware other atendees are, of the risks involved in that kind of event, and whether anything more could have been done to inform them.
Worth noting that everyone interviewed in the guardian article above who was in the crowd seems to think people turning up without tickets weren't a factor. Seems familiar.
The biggest issue I can see from the Guardian, and other sources, is that they started the concert before the issues outside had been resolved.
Thinking of myself again, if I had paid good money for a concert, shown up on time, been standing out in the coldest weather all year and could hear the concert beginning, my behaviour might become a little more urgent. And, as mentioned, a bit of jostling further back in a crowd can amplify to a fatal crush at the front if there aren't proper measures to dissipate the crowds.
You tend to hear of a single event in these kind of disasters, like a gate being opened in Hillsborough, a goal being scored at Ibrox as everyone was leaving.
Whoever allowed the gig to start when there were a thousand people on the street was fucking stupid and it should be asked if that is corporate manslaughter. I'll bet their minds were on commercial agreements, council ticketing, venue hire instead of the wellbeing of the people outside.
Thinking of myself again, if I had paid good money for a concert, shown up on time, been standing out in the coldest weather all year and could hear the concert beginning, my behaviour might become a little more urgent. And, as mentioned, a bit of jostling further back in a crowd can amplify to a fatal crush at the front if there aren't proper measures to dissipate the crowds.
You tend to hear of a single event in these kind of disasters, like a gate being opened in Hillsborough, a goal being scored at Ibrox as everyone was leaving.
Whoever allowed the gig to start when there were a thousand people on the street was fucking stupid and it should be asked if that is corporate manslaughter. I'll bet their minds were on commercial agreements, council ticketing, venue hire instead of the wellbeing of the people outside.
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
2000 was mental but, while paying punter numbers have gone up, it’s generally accepted there are still significantly fewer people on a much larger site than there were in 2000. I was back in 2002 and the camping fields, even close to the Pyramid, were bizarrely spacious. I’ve been loads of times since and never been in a crowd that felt dangerous - the route to shangri la got a bit mad after the headliners at one point but that was dealt with.
the academy normally safely queues people down the side of the venue with barriered off space around the steps so no crush at the doors. The security guards way down the side are checking you’ve got a ticket. The tickets for the cancelled 2manydjs gig were electronic in-app (and someone told me changing/uncopyable QR codes). I really don’t think the issue here has been the academy - whether or not there were a lot of fake tickets, from the video I’ve seen for some reason the queuing system broke down, people jumped over/pushed down the barriers and a large crowd tried to rush the doors. That would have the same danger at every venue or festival I can think of because they all have to funnel all of the punters through a small number of ticket check/search gates.
At a festival there isn't one single attraction. As long as you get in there, you will have a good time over a couple of days. When a gig is 90 minutes, and you are standing outside and can hear it, then the sense of urgency will be greater.
Nobody set out that night to cause a crush that has killed at least one, and I really can't condemn the mindset which said "He's started playing, I've paid my money and have been waiting here for ages. Fuck that, I'm going in".
It's up to the venue and the promoter to make sure that, if this happens, nobody is put at risk.
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
if you look at really old gig tickets they were just a printed bit of paper. Physical, but easy to fake. like banknotes they then got increasingly complex - print on card, colour, bits of foil, hologram type stuff. That all made printing fake tickets harder - could be done but needed some money and preparation (Glastonbury has unique woven fabric wristbands each year but I still met some guys who‘d had fake ones made up a few years back That were convincing enough to flash at security)
QR codes are super easy to copy - you can just screenshot them - but the new style in an app that change every few minutes and effectively uncopyable - the venue know they’re only letting the true ticket holder through the door. But that doesn’t stop someone unscrupulously selling a useless screenshot if it to 100 different gullible people.
no idea wether that was a factor here
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
Again, pretty much every gig in London manages to get everyone through the doors in time.
doors open. 7pm
support 8pm
main act 9pm (in reality 915)
the show had started when the crush happened here though, so there must have been some unusual reason a thousand plus people were still on the pavement - door staff off sick, malfunctioning scanners maybe?
And when you've got the option of getting in two hours before the show, paying £7 for a plastic cup of Carling and standing in a cold, empty hall, or else going to a local pub and heading round to the venue at 8.30, I know which one I would rather do.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
I remember on many occasions meeting up with people from this very site and going to squat parties and the list of risky behaviours involved there is as long as your arm. We were a bit older than 19 as well.
You didn't carry out a risk assessment on capacity and safety before charging into a derelict building off your tits on drugs? Outrageous.I remember on many occasions meeting up with people from this very site and going to squat parties and the list of risky behaviours involved there is as long as your arm. We were a bit older than 19 as well.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Top infantilising there.
editor
hiraethified
Or maybe those people who were trying to smash the doors in and trample over people to get in were disinclined to come forward to a national newspaper with their details?
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