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England Cricket 2024

Well Pope is showing some fight at long last. Almost certainly in a losing cause but on the whole the batters have stood up a bit (so far) in the 2nd innings. Root's all-rounder status might take a boost on this tour. If he gets some runs. He's certainly the leader of the bowling 'attack'.

W.Indies at least posting a total in the other game. Would so love them to beat Australia, even if it probably isn't going to happen. But at least they've set them over 200.
 
That is a brilliant innings by Pope in the circumstances, he deserves a lot of credit for that.

Overall though similar to what I thought earlier - England have played reasonably well given the circumstances and the players available really. They'd need to play out of their skins to get anywhere near winning though.
 
Brilliant effort from Pope and it's not often you hear me say that. Jadeja taken apart. It's still nowhere near enough but this game could have been over in 3 days. That it isn't is almost entirely down to Pope.
 
It's not going to be enough, but if Ahmed and Wood can hang in there with Pope there could be 200+ to try and defend.

Part way through yesterday I was assuming an innings defeat, so to keep it interesting late into day 4 would be a psychological boost for the next test.
 
Well done Ollie Pope. Feels like his first really significant England knock.

Mohammed Siraj is coasting through this match so far. Seven overs without a wicket and nought not out in the first innings. He has taken a catch.

Meanwhile, Aus need 156 more with 8 wickets left. They will probably do it, but those earlier odds of 18-1 for WI still look like great value.
 
planetgeli said:
I've seen some weak bowling attacks in my time but this one is taking the piss. Comparing the two teams attacks, it does look unfair.
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100% this. Would have grumbled at this selection in a dead rubber against Sri Lanka - not this Lions Den.

It's fine, we need to take these crazy decisions as part of bazball (see also: ashes decleration obvs).

But its still quite a jarring surprise (once again) to realise quite how far below standard our spinners are when they get called up and actually have a go in 'big boys' cricket. This is the cream of the county game, usually heralded with some flattering statistic (and even then its quite meagre), and they are rank awful against any side (along with an unpreparedness or sense of surprise that the oppo will go fully after these novices). At least with the quicks, I think they have a much less 'failure' rate when the next big thing gets called up to the side.

And, lets call it how it is, Headingly was wonderful etc, but the normalisation of Jack Leach as a bona fide International pick does not help.

Also I've said it before and I'll say it again...Spin bowling shouldn't be a scarce skill. It doesnt require twitch fibres or a certain genetic make up...Its just a case of finding enough people willing to do the hours in training, and skilled people to train them. In the last 20 years British sport has used lottery money and really quite excellent (and uncharacteristically) great elite sports coaching, and produced much more genuinely miraculous achievements: Wimbledon winner, Tour de France. Surely we cab build a spinner that could make the world's top 100 (I reckon there are at least 250 spinners better than these 3)

(a cultural disposition to cherish it doesn't hurt - my apocryphal memory/ understanding is that, in my cricket teams, our Asian batsmen can spin the ball for fun...Like its not even remotely something they rate, and they lob them down as if they're goofing around or want to take a breather from running in the statutory net medium pace, but they're producing turn that is almost comedic (because the British 'dedicated' spinners get nothing out of the matting lol)
 
Watching the highlights, there is spin and there is variable bounce. England did really, really well to score over 300 for six on this. Get a lead of 200 and they're in with a chance. Foakes was bowled by a grubber - bad luck for him, but good news for England's chances tomorrow.

Dunno what to say about the quality of England's spinners. Root bowled more overs than anyone in the first innings. Can he spin England to victory tomorrow? It's not impossible. Batters who are occasional bowlers have won test matches with the ball. Allan Border did it once. Yes, I know that's going back a bit. But Root's done the business in India before.

In terms of selection, with hindsight I think only picking one seamer was a mistake. Two seamers plus three spinners, one of whom is Root, would be a decent balance. It would help if one of the seamers could bat, but we don't have that. I think we need to think of Root as a full allrounder for this tour.
 
Ted Striker said:
And, lets call it how it is, Headingly was wonderful etc, but the normalisation of Jack Leach as a bona fide International pick does not help.
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I think that's a bit unfair. Leach went for under 2.5 an over in the first innings. It's not his fault that India got after the two newbies. No, he's not the world's greatest spinner and never will be, but he's decent enough.
 
I don't really have a problem with the selection of the spinners for the squad tbh. Fact is there aren't a load of obviously better spinners out there and arguably one way you might get some is by giving them a chance. Maybe on the next tour of India one or more of them will be more set as international calibre players.

Agree with littlebabyjesus on the balance for this particular test but also agree that that's a hindsight view. I'd expect another seamer next game though.
 
It's a problem a few teams have. England, New Zealand, SA, Aus are rarely going to pick more than one spinner at home. Then suddenly they need three for India/Sri Lanka. They're inevitably going to be picking bowlers with limited test experience.

And the reason they only pick one spinner at home is also a reason there are few spinners in their 1st class set up.

Here, teams like Somerset with their 'Ciderabad' get criticised for low scoring pitches but realistically that might be just what we need. One or two counties like Somerset or Northants being encouraged to produce bunsens. Talented young spinners encouraged to move there.
 
Monkeygrinder's Organ said:
I don't really have a problem with the selection of the spinners for the squad tbh. Fact is there aren't a load of obviously better spinners out there and arguably one way you might get some is by giving them a chance. Maybe on the next tour of India one or more of them will be more set as international calibre players.

Agree with littlebabyjesus on the balance for this particular test but also agree that that's a hindsight view. I'd expect another seamer next game though.
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It's not a hindsight view. I thought it was wrong from the start. There was too much inexperience. Anderson would have controlled the scoreboard.
littlebabyjesus said:
Back to this match, Mark Wood may be important tomorrow. Bowl full, fast and straight and look for that variable bounce.
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I think you're making too much of that variable bounce. It was just one ball, from a spinner. The pitch is decent, the rubbish about England's 'above-par score' on day one was wrong. India have had to rely on some magic balls from Ashwin and Jadeja (and Bumrah's excellence). England don't have that attack.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
It's a problem a few teams have. England, New Zealand, SA, Aus are rarely going to pick more than one spinner at home. Then suddenly they need three for India/Sri Lanka. They're inevitably going to be picking bowlers with limited test experience.

And the reason they only pick one spinner at home is also a reason there are few spinners in their 1st class set up.

Here, teams like Somerset with their 'Ciderabad' get criticised for low scoring pitches but realistically that might be just what we need. One or two counties like Somerset or Northants being encouraged to produce bunsens. Talented young spinners encouraged to move there.
Click to expand...

There needs to be a mix doesn't there. Players need that variety or they're not going to be able to play in certain conditions - I think that goes for batters as well as the spinners. In fact even the seamers need to be able to bowl in unfavorable conditions.

At the moment though unless you play in those places you need to be able to bat. Rehan Ahmed is potentially good enough to play as a batsmen and that will hopefully get him chances.
 
planetgeli said:
It's not a hindsight view. I thought it was wrong from the start. There was too much inexperience. Anderson would have controlled the scoreboard.


I think you're making too much of that variable bounce. It was just one ball, from a spinner. The pitch is decent, the rubbish about England's 'above-par score' on day one was wrong. India have had to rely on some magic balls from Ashwin and Jadeja (and Bumrah's excellence). England don't have that attack.
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Ok causes for hope.

One, when pitches start to wear in Asia, they can 'go' very quickly.

Two, Root gives it a decent rip so he's capable of magic balls. Eg Bairstow was done today by natural variation. Root could do that.

Three, if the pitch goes, Wood could be lethal. He could go bang bang bang.

Four, England played very well today but they also rode some luck. India may not be so lucky.

A lead of 126 won't be enough, but 200 could be.
 
I admire your optimism. :)

5) The England attack is toothless (and the killer Leach may even be restricted by a dodgy knee) and 300 should be easily getable against it.
 
planetgeli said:
I admire your optimism. :)

5) The England attack is toothless (and the killer Leach may even be restricted by a dodgy knee) and 300 should be easily getable against it.
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To be fair I don't think anyone is arguing they think England will win, more that if you squint really really hard they might have an outside chance.

I said before the series that they'd do well just to be competitive and I still think that's right. I'd fully expect them to lose but they've done ok so far I'd say.
 
Two terrific test matches.

Steve Smith carries his bat in defeat.

Amazing result for WI. Hope it inspires players to want to play test cricket. You don't get that high anywhere else.
 
Thing is, this attack still. We're trying to bowl India out effectively with a complete newb who is doing ok (Hartley), one of the best batters, not bowlers, in the world (Root) and asking Wood to be Bumrah (he isn't, and isn't reversing it which is what he's there to do right now). Besides that we have the mighty Jack Leach with a dodgy knee and Rehan Ahmed who can't be trusted not to leak runs. And we don't have enough runs to play with, despite heroic efforts from Pope.

India will still win.
 
planetgeli said:
Thing is, this attack still. We're trying to bowl India out effectively with a complete newb who is doing ok (Hartley), one of the best batters, not bowlers, in the world (Root) and asking Wood to be Bumrah (he isn't, and isn't reversing it which is what he's there to do right now). Besides that we have the mighty Jack Leach with a dodgy knee and Rehan Ahmed who can't be trusted not to leak runs. And we don't have enough runs to play with, despite heroic efforts from Pope.

India will still win.
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With the huge disparity in on-paper bowling quality I'm just amazed we're even notionally still in this. Hartley and Ahmed not being so shit that they get batted out of the game entirely is kind of a win at this point in their careers and against this quality of opposition.
 
What we do have on our side of course is the psychology of a 4th innings chase. India could lose this as much as England could win it.
 
SpookyFrank said:
Aus declared without a first innings lead. The gods will always punish such hubris.
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I don't think it was hubris. At the time, under lights, pink ball, it made sense. Now of course, when you lose by 8 runs, it looks bad. But it was nowhere near the same thing as England's stupid declaration last year.
 
SpookyFrank said:
Aus declared without a first innings lead. The gods will always punish such hubris.
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They wanted a crack at WI under the lights. I don't think day night test matches work - they produce this kind of thing - but they conjured up a classic here. Shamar Joseph bowled 12 overs straight with a broken toe.
 
SpookyFrank said:
With the huge disparity in on-paper bowling quality I'm just amazed we're even notionally still in this. Hartley and Ahmed not being so shit that they get batted out of the game entirely is kind of a win at this point in their careers and against this quality of opposition.
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Yes except I think Rehan was batted out of the game. Prove me wrong Rehan.
 
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