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Energy Return on Investment

Have another think about that statement when you consider the fact that there isn't sufficient uranium available globally at anything like the concentrations that makes any real sense to even power another generation of nuclear at the current levels.
Oh, I agree, nuclear has its problems, too - I wasn't meaning to suggest it's a panacea. But, given the short-termism of the thinking that seems to operate around national power needs, I suspect nuclear's the best bet [ETA] for now, perforce.

Do you really think that culling half the population is a more sensible policy than installing as much renewable electricity generation capacity as possible, and reducing per capita energy requirements as far as possible through energy efficiency measures? I suspect you don't.
Of course I don't! :) But the problem is, as I see it, that the density of energy usage is sufficiently high that, at the comparatively low densities (ie kWh/km²) of most renewable schemes, we need more land area than we've actually got to generate enough power for our needs. If I'm wrong, I am more than happy to be corrected.

Realistically, I think the answer will be a middle road - somehow, we are going to have to substantially reduce our dependence on power, whether that's by replacing all our lights with LEDs, insulating homes even more than we do now, relying on passive heating, changing our travel habits, etc., etc., while at the same time ramping up on sources, so we'll all get solar collectors on our roofs, heat pumps in our gardens, and so on. But I imagine there will still be a big gap, and I presume that renewables isn't capable of filling that gap? Which presumably takes us back to the non-renewable sources - nuclear and fossil fuels.

I'd like to think someone in a position of responsibility is taking a strategic view, but I suspect they're not.
 
The energy to build the transducers to concentrate the incredibly diffuse energy on that summer's day into that jet efflux came from hydrocarbon, not the energy from the grey Northern European summer's day. You can't power this kind of society on sunbeams and summer breezes.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/26/us-climate-germany-solar-idUSBRE84P0FI20120526

These are not the facts you are looking for - Germany peaked at 22GW from solar alone on a Friday afternoon last May. That's a pretty good output from Northern Europe's grey summer days.
 
I,m trying to follow the arguments of the two main proponents on here and starting to realise why the general public has, at best become confused, and at worst, lost interest!

Aye, it'd be good if they could agree a bit more...
 
Because cost of energy isn't the only factor in where you site industrial plants?
True, labour costs and pollution penalties play a big part, but wringing their hands and blaming energy costs gets the unions off their backs
 
Kids get it quite quickly. .
You're let loose on kids with this stuff!:eek:

Ok, so the global manufacturing system is what needs to be sustained to maintain high technology. But there is a lot of wriggle room in there. Currently the global manufacturing system produces all kinds of, well, crap. A lot of energy goes towards producing goods that are not needed. And given the scale of what is needed to replace fossil fuels with high-tech renewable solutions, a large part of that system could be dedicated to it. The economies of scale that you talk about that make accounting for solar panels on their own impossible could still be in place, but provided by other useful things, not by things that we need to judge unnecessary.

To achieve that requires a concerted, coordinated review of priorities. A systems review that can put good numbers on the energy costs of different energy technologies within a rationalised manufacturing system that puts energy efficiency above the driving down of wages or other factors that have produced the current energy-inefficient system. As an example, books for sale in the UK are invariably printed in East Asia. This is because their wages are lower. But it is energy-inefficient. Those same books used to be printed in the UK, and could be again. A small example, no doubt, but one that is replicated across the board. The global manufacturing system is currently being abused by the capitalist system.
 
Encouraging, but you would need to see the figures generated on a truly manky day to get a true picture of the back up capacity needed
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/gra...lar-provide-half-germanys-energy-output-88052

What's interesting about these figures is that solar in Germany is sized around manky days (German habit of demanding actual performance figures, not peak performance figures), and that it's possible to predict fairly accurately what the output from "diffuse" sources would be at least 24 hours in advance.

There's a good case for retaining some gas or coal capacity for managing demand spikes, at least if you don't want to build big hydro storage, but for the most part it looks like you can run an industrial economy on at least 50% wind and solar.
 
You're let loose on kids with this stuff!:eek:
Best place to start. Then they go home and tell their parents they are talking crap. Works a treat.
Ok, so the global manufacturing system is what needs to be sustained to maintain high technology. But there is a lot of wriggle room in there.

I absolutely agree with your points about concerted prioritisation.

But while it feels like there may be wiggle room, that is an illusion created by (1) the incredible energy density and EROEI of our current primary fuel type and (2) the extent to which we have made it invisible.

You are working back from the bits you see and hoping that you can shave enough off to maintain a viable system. Since you can't see all the bits, it's hard to recognise that you would be merely scratching the surface.

Thermodynamics is brutal. Every single pathway in the tech manufacturing system represents an energy conversion process. Every time you convert energy, you lose some. This has nothing to do with "efficiency" - it is an intrinsic universal law, and is irreducible below a high number.

To overcome that loss you need an energy gradient. This is completely different to "quantity". Oil and gas has a high energy gradient, solar energy has a low energy gradient, irrespective of the quantity of it you assemble.

The more losses you have in a process, the higher the gradient you need to drive the process. Because of the sheer number of energy conversion processes involved in high tech manufacturing, you need a fuel with a very high gradient to drive it - higher than solar and wind are capable of providing. The more solar energy you try to assemble to drive their manufacturing process, the more energy you require to assemble it. The fact that we appear to be managing this is the illusion created by the fact the entire process is subsidised thermodynamically (not financially) by hydrocarbon. There is no wiggle room here.

The proper way - I think - is to start with the energy systems you know you have - unstimulated solar based agriculture, passive solar heating, geothermal and simple, low tech - and work forward to figure out what social arrangement you can sustain. Then organise your social systems within that energy budget. If you are conservative and wrong, then enjoy the upside - if you are optimistic and wrong, a lot of people will die of cold and hunger.

It yields a fundamentally different program from the illusory one you devise assuming you can shave bits off "business as usual hi tech".
 
LOL nonsense.

Where do you get this shit from?

You need to stop reading those Peak Oil conspiraloon websites.
 
The more solar energy you try to assemble to drive their manufacturing process, the more energy you require to assemble it. The fact that we appear to be managing this is the illusion created by the fact the entire process is subsidised thermodynamically (not financially) by hydrocarbon. There is no wiggle room here..
Ok, I do understand you here, and it is a valid and challenging point. However, it does need numbers. In particular, establishing a new, rationalised manufacturing system would be proper use of remaining hydrocarbons. This requires proper long-term thinking. As an example, the Severn barrage, a project that should have been started years ago. It would take a lot of energy to build, but once built, it could produce energy with very little input for over 100 years. Estimates are that it could produce 5% of the UK's electricity - it could power just about the whole of Wales. So taking a chunk of fossil fuel reserve and effectively converting it into the Severn barrage could be a perfectly energy-productive thing to do, and this kind of long-term investment and long-term thinking is what is needed for the rest of the life of fossil fuels. But again, it does need numbers. I need to see numbers before I can be convinced of the futility of high-tech energy solutions.
 
But to be honest, LBJ, I think we are, as a civilisation, like cretinous Easter Islanders chopping down our last tree. Nothing changes much in the human condition.
The political will to act in the long-term good is still lacking. As I said above, whether or not we've reached Peak Oil, it is now time to rationalise exactly what it is we need to achieve with the remaining oil. There is still time to do big things with the necessary will.
 
As an example, the Severn barrage, a project that should have been started years ago. It would take a lot of energy to build, but once built, it could produce energy with very little input for over 100 years. Estimates are that it could produce 5% of the UK's electricity - it could power just about the whole of Wales. So taking a chunk of fossil fuel reserve and effectively converting it into the Severn barrage could be a perfectly energy-productive thing to do, and this kind of long-term investment and long-term thinking is what is needed for the rest of the life of fossil fuels. But again, it does need numbers. I need to see numbers before I can be convinced of the futility of high-tech energy solutions.
Bingo. Absolutely. We have an allocation problem to solve - classic economics. Do we spend our fixed stock of remaining high gradient fuel on productive, resilient, long term structures (like your proposal, and reconfiguring our living arrangements to decimate energy use) or do we spend it on fragile boondoggles like hi-tech wind turbines and solar panels that fail at the first interruption in their colossal supply chains? (Lo-tech ones are fine, in my view).

If you need numbers, you might want to get interested in the emerging disciplines of social and industrial metabolism, and energy and ecology based economics. Like climate change, the numbers are hardening fast and in a worrying direction. (This paper (PDF) and its references is quite a good introduction, and the New Economics Foundation is a first class resource).
 
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/gra...lar-provide-half-germanys-energy-output-88052

What's interesting about these figures is that solar in Germany is sized around manky days (German habit of demanding actual performance figures, not peak performance figures), and that it's possible to predict fairly accurately what the output from "diffuse" sources would be at least 24 hours in advance.

There's a good case for retaining some gas or coal capacity for managing demand spikes, at least if you don't want to build big hydro storage, but for the most part it looks like you can run an industrial economy on at least 50% wind and solar.

ESP with these developments;

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130224142831.htm.
Having said that the promised development funds will primarily be headed Germany's way.
Hydro storage is an excellent way of storing power, again the 'bliddy gormans' are way ahead with this;)
 
Of course not. You were trying to suggest that the UK had "diversified" its energy supply, and could therefore do so again, presumably via renewables. In fact, the migration from biomass to hydropower to coal to oil - energy sources of increasing density and EROEI - is intensification, not diversification. We are undergoing the reversal of that process - migration to successively more diffuse energy sources of successively decreasing EROEI.
I was countering your argument that complexity itself is an intrinsic problem, by pointing out that the increasingly complex system had succeeded in overcoming the problem of deforestation whereas the simple system had failed and collapsed - ie the exact opposite of your proposition.

I then felt the need to point out that your next statement was factually inaccurate because it missed out the massive role played by hydro power in the early development of the industrial revolution, as well as wind in powering the countries flour mills etc for well over a millenium before that.

So we used technology to diversify our energy supply away from purely biomass (or more accurately biomass + peat + a little sea coal) to include power from the wind & rivers, and then increasing amounts of coal, particularly following the development of the steam engine, but we retained the hydro powered mills for a long time after coal was around, as well as developing that hydro resource into a generation source for electricity.

Actually, it seems I was wrong, and water mills were in use as early as roman times, with 6000 water mills recorded in the doomsday book, and water mills were in continuous use through to the mid 20th century, including a significant explansion in the early industrial revolution to power most of the wool and cotton mills between Leeds and Manchester and elsewhere.

You posted up a graph that was inaccurate to prove a point, don't blame me for your shit sources and your inability to recognise that they're wrong before posting them up.
 
But to be honest, LBJ, I think we are, as a civilisation, like cretinous Easter Islanders chopping down our last tree. Nothing changes much in the human condition.
True, but if there is money in them thar renewables then there is hope for us yet
 
You will never see an estimate quoted by Free Spirit that allows for the manufacturing energy of the tractor that ploughed the field that made the corn for the bread in the solar panel installer's sandwich.
of course you wouldn't because that would be stupid.

Would the installer have been eating that sandwich or some other equivalent food if they were doing something else with their life?

Of course they would, therefore that is not an additional energy input to the system required to install solar panels, therefore it's not included in the EROEI figures.

Yet in a system powered by solar, that tractor would have to be manufactured by power produced by the panel.
yes, and that is included in the overall energy requirements of society / the economy in general.

There is no argument about the fact that they need powering by the combined energy outputs of all energy sources feeding in to the system, it's just that you don't understand how EROEI calculations work and why they work in that way, so you insist on doing them wrong and then getting your knickers in a twist about it.

It's really not that difficult a concept to understand is it?

EROEI calcs are based on the additional energy inputs required to produce that energy source that wouldn't have been needed if that energy source wasn't being built.

The other factors are just included as being the energy that are required to be powered in the rest of the economy.

Otherwise how would you go about calculating how much energy society needed to power it from all those combined sources? You'd have to go back through each of the calculations individually and pull out all the inputs allowed for all those installers sandwiches and similar inputs and then remove them from the overall energy requirements of society which would be fiendishly complex and would have to be recalculated every time you adjusted the energy mix...

Basically your way of doing EROEI calcs is completely unworkable, as well as being completely unnecessary - it would make the entire situation much more confused, as you demonstrate with your confused and wrong analysis of the situation.

This in a nutshell is why you're wrong, and why your assessment is so out of kilter with virtually the entire body of academic literature on the subject.
 
Bingo. Absolutely. We have an allocation problem to solve - classic economics. Do we spend our fixed stock of remaining high gradient fuel on productive, resilient, long term structures (like your proposal, and reconfiguring our living arrangements to decimate energy use) or do we spend it on fragile boondoggles like hi-tech wind turbines and solar panels that fail at the first interruption in their colossal supply chains? (Lo-tech ones are fine, in my view).

If you need numbers, you might want to get interested in the emerging disciplines of social and industrial metabolism, and energy and ecology based economics. Like climate change, the numbers are hardening fast and in a worrying direction. (This paper (PDF) and its references is quite a good introduction, and the New Economics Foundation is a first class resource).
it's not an either or situation, we still have the energy available to do both.
 
Otherwise how would you go about calculating how much energy society needed to power it from all those combined sources? You'd have to go back through each of the calculations individually and pull out all the inputs allowed for all those installers sandwiches and similar inputs and then remove them from the overall energy requirements of society which would be fiendishly complex and would have to be recalculated every time you adjusted the energy mix...
Indeed. So because it would be fiendishly complex, we don't need to do it and are therefore free to ignore it? My understanding of your thought process improves with each exchange.

So how do you account for the problem that, if everyone places those "other" losses on someone else's energy balance sheet, those losses don't appear on anyone's balances sheets and are therefore unaccounted for?
 
Indeed. So because it would be fiendishly complex, we don't need to do it and are therefore free to ignore it? My understanding of your thought process improves with each exchange.

So how do you account for the problem that, if everyone places those "other" losses on someone else's energy balance sheet, those losses don't appear on anyone's balances sheets and are therefore unaccounted for?
what losses?

They do appear on the balance sheet as you put it, they're included in the target figure for the energy that is needed to power the country.

As I've pointed out many times to you, you double count these energy costs, because you use the unadjusted energy consumption figures for the country / world as the figures for what needs to be powered, and then you also seek to include many of these energy costs again within the specific EROEI figures you want to use for each technology.

It may come as news to you, but here in the solar industry we don't actually grow our staff from scratch to install our panels, we train them up from the existing population where they've been quite happily eating around the same amount they eat now for man years previously, and will continue to do so once they retire / leave the industry.
 
feel free to prove me wrong by supplying your adjusted calculations for the energy consumption of the country / world excluding all the energy costs of the installers lunches and other associated energy costs you want to be assigned to the solar industry EROEI figures, then do the same for all other energy sources.

I assume you must be able to give these figures otherwise your position would be complete nonsense.
 
Oh, I agree, nuclear has its problems, too - I wasn't meaning to suggest it's a panacea. But, given the short-termism of the thinking that seems to operate around national power needs, I suspect nuclear's the best bet [ETA] for now, perforce.
no it's not. It's incompatible with the high levels of renewables we'll have in the energy mix by the time the next nuclear plant to be built comes on line, and will actively prevent or make more difficult the further growth of renewable energy.

Renewables will be generating well in excess of the level that nuclear has ever done in this country well before the next nuclear plant comes on stream - we're already installing something like the equivalent of a new nuclear plant every couple of years between onshore, offshore wind and solar PV now, and Germany is installing the equivalent of a new 1GW nuclear plant in solar alone each year, which we could well get up to in 2-4 years time with the right government policies.

Falcon is arguing from the perspective of an old, out of date energy paradigm, ignoring the fact that the solar PV industry in this country grew from a MW to a GW scale industry between 2009-11, and the offshore wind industry is also now installing at an increasing rate of knots, and delivering projects ahead of time and under budget.

To put some numbers on that, the solar industry went from 32MWp total installed capacity at the start of 2010 to 400MWp in early November 2011 to 2GWp now (2000MWp), and apparently has installed 0.5GW in this last quarter alone mostly of the largescale systems Falcon dismissed earlier, while the 0-50kWp roof mounted sector has still been relatively quiet due to the poor weather etc. To me that means that the industry already has the combined capacity to install around 3-4GWp per year (8-10GWp gives around the same annual output as a 1GW nuke) if the government policy framework allowed for it - all we need is some stability.

Of course I don't! :) But the problem is, as I see it, that the density of energy usage is sufficiently high that, at the comparatively low densities (ie kWh/km²) of most renewable schemes, we need more land area than we've actually got to generate enough power for our needs. If I'm wrong, I am more than happy to be corrected.
Consider how much roof space there is in this country that currently isn't covered in solar panels, but could be, then multiply that up by the 2GWp we've got installed now to give you a rough back of the envelope idea of the roof mounted solar potential, then consider the fact that there's quite a lot of movement towards building integrated PV on the facades of big office blocks etc.

And that's just PV, there's over 40GWp worth of offshore wind licenses already been sold, then there's the potential from the severn barrage if we ever get a vaguely sensible government in power, then there's the conversion of coal plants to biomass plants (or co-firing), tidal stream, biogas, energy from waste (not exactly renewable or benign, but a power source that's being rolled out), and not forgetting the existing hydro capacity we have.

All backed up by our existing gas generation plants, and 3GW pump storage capacity, with another 1.2GW pumps storage capacity in the pipeline, plus several GW of interconnectors to norway for hydro backup and export, iceland for hydro & geothermal back up, Germany, Holland, France, Ireland etc.

Realistically, I think the answer will be a middle road - somehow, we are going to have to substantially reduce our dependence on power, whether that's by replacing all our lights with LEDs, insulating homes even more than we do now, relying on passive heating, changing our travel habits, etc., etc., while at the same time ramping up on sources, so we'll all get solar collectors on our roofs, heat pumps in our gardens, and so on.
We definitely need to reduce our energy consumption as far as possible, but those means are largely at hand, and there's already been a hell of a lot of work done, with the majority of suitable houses now having cavity wall insulation, loft insulation, and double glazing for example, and the attention now mostly turning to solid wall insulation for 'hard to treat' homes, as well as mopping up the laggards - which contrary to Falcons assertions, is being done now as we go by solar installers due to the energy efficiency requirement DECC put in place last year, so if we find an uninsulated loft, we'll insulate it as part of our work, and have sometimes had to even go as far as internal wall insulation and replacement boilers to meet the target.

My personal rough estimate is that we as a country could relatively easily manage to get our energy consumption down to 50% of it's peak and still maintain the same standard of living (or even improve it). I suspect we could well go lower than that, but that would require some significant structural changes to reverse the car based culture that's developed - eg reopening local shops and services to allow for more walking and cycling etc.

But I imagine there will still be a big gap, and I presume that renewables isn't capable of filling that gap? Which presumably takes us back to the non-renewable sources - nuclear and fossil fuels.
I hope I've gone some way to convincing you otherwise.

I'd like to think someone in a position of responsibility is taking a strategic view, but I suspect they're not.
Well, the guy that many on here seem to love, Prof Mackay, was appointed Chief Scientific advisor to decc, and has done work on getting a strategic view of this in place. Unfortunately he's essentially self taught in this field, made some major errors in his assumptions in his book, that then got carried into government, so the strategic overview has been a bit counterproductive as his vision essentially was more nuclear based with lots of heat pumps for heating and electric cars, and while he was supportive of renewables, he reached a back of the envelope calculation on them that he determined showed they weren't up to the job essentially... and because he never published his work in any peer reviewed journals, or really discussed it with anyone who had a proper background in the field, he made some major mistakes on that IMO, and DECC policy has suffered as a result.
 
Thermodynamics is brutal. Every single pathway in the tech manufacturing system represents an energy conversion process. Every time you convert energy, you lose some.
cf.
what losses?
OK. The interest in these conversations is exploring the implications of basic thermodynamics. It is not in explaining basic thermodynamics over and over again to people who's jobs require thermodynamics to operate in a different way.

I'm going to suggest we gracefully terminate this exchange.
 
True, but if there is money in them thar renewables then there is hope for us yet
I certainly believe that a financial system in which energy generating capacity provides the collateral underpinning the unit of exchange offers the most durable prospect of stabilising the financial system. But the current process of printing money to subsidise energy white elephants is suicidal.

Shale gas gets funded by Volumetric Purchase Payments, in which hypothetical future gas production (which doesn't exist) is securitised and used as collateral to fund the initial fracking operation, then gets bundled and flipped before the well craters - it's a Ponzi scheme, and about to burst. I suspect this will be the initiating event of the next cycle of the financial crisis, mirroring the 2008 housing crisis which exploited exactly the same wheeze.

The same process takes place in renewable schemes, with power purchase agreements predicated on forward power sales forming the basis of securitised collateral debt instruments funding the investment. As soon as the global supply chain starts to fail, these debt instruments will collapse (where will recourse be in such an arrangement - the bankrupt, bank-bailing-out government?), further destabilising the financial system.

These are the pickles we get ourselves into when we give into happy-clappy techno-euphoria, and don't get curious enough about how the show is supposed to be kept on the road as the bottom falls out of our energy system.
 
cf.

OK. The interest in these conversations is exploring the implications of basic thermodynamics. It is not in explaining basic thermodynamics over and over again to people who's jobs require thermodynamics to operate in a different way.

I'm going to suggest we gracefully terminate this exchange.
How come every time I raise this key problem with your analysis you sidestep it?

I actually suspect that you've realised you've got this wrong quite a while ago, but can't actually bring yourself to admit it.
feel free to prove me wrong by supplying your adjusted calculations for the energy consumption of the country / world excluding all the energy costs of the installers lunches and other associated energy costs you want to be assigned to the solar industry EROEI figures, then do the same for all other energy sources.

I assume you must be able to give these figures otherwise your position would be complete nonsense.

The sooner you get your head around this the better, as it seems to be the key reason you've got your analysis of the entire energy situation so wrong.
 
Free Spirit's defence is: "Show me the number". Do we need to quantify the actual EROEI? Not really. ..It is sufficient to observe merely that the wider you draw the energy accounting system boundary around Free Spirit's devices, the lower their EROEI goes, and the boundary goes very, very wide in high tech manufacture.
cf.
feel free to prove me wrong by supplying your adjusted calculations for the energy consumption of the country / world excluding all the energy costs of the installers lunches and other associated energy costs you want to be assigned to the solar industry EROEI figures, then do the same for all other energy sources.

I assume you must be able to give these figures otherwise your position would be complete nonsense.

Free Spirit - this is just the game you play.
 
What key problem would that be? I suspect what you are labelling as "sidestepping" is actually an answer you aren't really understanding.
the key problem of you double counting those energy inputs that in your calculations appear both in the side of the energy invested in solar / wind etc and within the energy required to power the country / world.

Using your example of the sandwich of the solar installer, you count it as if the installer were eating 2 lunches a day - one as a solar installer, the other as a member of the wider society.

Unless you go through removing all those energy costs from the general energy demand figures for the country / world.

So my question is, in your calculations do you remove the energy costs you've already counted in all those installers sandwiches etc from the general energy demand figures?

Even if you do, do you not see the futility in spending so much time calculating these figures down to the installers lunch on one side of the equation when you then just have to remove them from the other?
 
cf.


Free Spirit - this is just the game you play.
it's really not a game, it's the major reason why you've got this entire situation wrong, and why you're at odds with virtually all the academic literature and professional practice on EROEI figures.

Not once have you been able to offer a proper answer to these questions, so surely it must have occurred to you that I might have a point if you're unable to provide a rational explanation of how your approach accounts for this issue.
 
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