Electric cars

[Winot]

We are in Glasgow using a car club; details here. Have driven a Renault Zoe and a BMW i3.

Caveat that I don’t know anything about cars, but my impression was that the Zoe was surprisingly old fashioned and low tech. Didn’t feel that different to my 2005 Prius (in fact the interior was worse). Drove like a bit of a bucket.

The BMW by contrast was like something from a different planet. Fancy interior tech; felt very classy. Some kind of magic seemed to keep it stuck to the road no matter what the bend/speed. Amazing handling.

 

[Cid]

But what you're describing is what is happening but in a relatively slow process. This is exactly why we're discussing electric cars on this thread. I just don't think the overnight revolution is possible. Christ enough people shat the bed over led lights and not being able to buy filament anymore.

Any government in a democracy (even a piss poor one like ours) has to be able to bring enough of the population along with it, even is they were minded to enter a revolution. In this regard I don't think expounding absolutist positions gets things fixed no matter how right they are.

This is me though, I am a firm believer in compromising where necessary to achieve things.

I mean, we're mostly all agreeing with each other here just debating the best way to get to where we need to be.

I think we can say with a pretty high degree of certainty that the earliest chance for a government willing to make massive infrastructure changes is 2028. Not much hope there. I think it’s increasingly likely that people will have look to more localised forms of organisation to get through changes… which is good in many ways, but not easy.

 

[teuchter]

Toyota Whiffed on EVs. Now It’s Trying to Slow Their Rise

In a bid to protect its investments in hybrids and hydrogen fuel cells, the carmaker is lobbying against the transition to electric vehicles.

www.wired.com

 

[Teaboy]

Toyota Whiffed on EVs. Now It’s Trying to Slow Their Rise

In a bid to protect its investments in hybrids and hydrogen fuel cells, the carmaker is lobbying against the transition to electric vehicles.

www.wired.com

Its not surprising really. Toyota have been a bit dodgy to say the least with their advertising and have got into hot water in other countries with their slipperiness. Plus the automotive industry in general has a long and ignoble history of regularly being complete cunts.

 

[dessiato]

I know things are different in the U.K. but I thought this might be interesting.

I’ve said on this thread that I’d consider going electric but my experience this week means it’s unlikely in the near future. I’ve just done 2240km since Sunday. During this time when I’ve been refuelling I’ve looked for charge points. I found only three in total. It’s a shame because in other areas Spain is making huge efforts to have more green/renewable energy.

 

[Leafster]

I know things are different in the U.K. but I thought this might be interesting.

I’ve said on this thread that I’d consider going electric but my experience this week means it’s unlikely in the near future. I’ve just done 2240km since Sunday. During this time when I’ve been refuelling I’ve looked for charge points. I found only three in total. It’s a shame because in other areas Spain is making huge efforts to have more green/renewable energy.

I don't know the situation in Spain (or even over the whole of the UK) but one thing to consider is that charge points don't need the same infrastructure as filling stations. This should mean they can be located elsewhere, not just at filling stations. There is a charge point at my local filling station (only one!) but there's a bank of them in the nearest Tesco and one at a local(ish) pub (this one's still free!). I think I've already mentioned that it looks like we're getting an Aldi on the next road over and they're going to install a bank of chargers too.

Try downloading one of the Apps. Even though I don't have an EV (yet) I downloaded Zap-Map so I can see how many chargers there are to see if owning an EV is viable. A friend as recently bought a "self-charging" hybrid as he said there were no chargers near his house for a plug-in hybrid or EV but I looked on Zap-Map and there's at least one a couple of minutes from his house. He also has off-road parking so he could have had a charger at home but that's another matter.

 

[dessiato]

I don't know the situation in Spain (or even over the whole of the UK) but one thing to consider is that charge points don't need the same infrastructure as filling stations. This should mean they can be located elsewhere, not just at filling stations. There is a charge point at my local filling station (only one!) but there's a bank of them in the nearest Tesco and one at a local(ish) pub (this one's still free!). I think I've already mentioned that it looks like we're getting an Aldi on the next road over and they're going to install a bank of chargers too.

Try downloading one of the Apps. Even though I don't have an EV (yet) I downloaded Zap-Map so I can see how many chargers there are to see if owning an EV is viable. A friend as recently bought a "self-charging" hybrid as he said there were no chargers near his house for a plug-in hybrid or EV but I looked on Zap-Map and there's at least one a couple of minutes from his house. He also has off-road parking so he could have had a charger at home but that's another matter.

My Tom Tom has ev charge points on it. I'll look more closely next time.

Here a lot of filling stations are also restaurants and hotels. I filled up at 6 and only saw one charging point. One hotel had two, one had one.

I accept that it's going to be easier to set up more than it would be to set up petrol stations but it's a bit chicken and egg. More charge points will encourage EV, but without the demand...

 

[Leafster]

My Tom Tom has ev charge points on it. I'll look more closely next time.

Here a lot of filling stations are also restaurants and hotels. I filled up at 6 and only saw one charging point. One hotel had two, one had one.

I accept that it's going to be easier to set up more than it would be to set up petrol stations but it's a bit chicken and egg. More charge points will encourage EV, but without the demand...

The roll out of more charge points is critical to the switch from ICE to EV and it's somewhere the UK government can take direct action to improve things.

However, as far as I can tell, it's all a bit half-hearted (at best) at the moment. It shouldn't be too difficult to enshrine the installation of chargers in the planning regulations for new build and renovation of both residential and commercial properties but on a national scale this hasn't been done. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the construction sector being major Tory donors

A quick google suggests that several cities and local authorities have local obligations in their planning rules to provide charge points.

This is the London Plan

The London Plan​

The London Plan acts as the overarching planning guidance for the 32 individual London Boroughs. Since 2011 the London Plan has provided a definition of “active” and “passive” provision of charge points in different development types.

• “Active” - “An actual socket connected to the electrical supply system that vehicle owners can plug their vehicle into”.
• “Passive” - “The network of cables and power supply necessary so that at a future date a socket can be added easily”.

The London Plan requires any developments or major refurbishments that require planning to provide the following.

Parking for	Percentage of bays with “active” charge point provision	Percentage of bays with “passive” charge point provision
Residential development	20%	20%
Retail development	10%	10%
Employment uses	20%	10%

This guidance is then interpreted into each Borough’s own planning regime.

I know from our local district council there are too many Daily Mail reading Tory councillors for any sort of positive initiative. I listened in to one council meeting in the last year where one of them was still spouting bollocks about having to scrap an EVs after two or three years when the battery fails!

EV Charging Legislation for Developments in the UK | Pod Point

Learn about how the government is looking to use planning and the regulatory regime to ensure the provision of chargepoints in UK developments.

pod-point.com

 

[dessiato]

The roll out of more charge points is critical to the switch from ICE to EV and it's somewhere the UK government can take direct action to improve things.

However, as far as I can tell, it's all a bit half-hearted (at best) at the moment. It shouldn't be too difficult to enshrine the installation of chargers in the planning regulations for new build and renovation of both residential and commercial properties but on a national scale this hasn't been done. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the construction sector being major Tory donors

A quick google suggests that several cities and local authorities have local obligations in their planning rules to provide charge points.

This is the London Plan



I know from our local district council there are too many Daily Mail reading Tory councillors for any sort of positive initiative. I listened in to one council meeting in the last year where one of them was still spouting bollocks about having to scrap an EVs after two or three years when the battery fails!

EV Charging Legislation for Developments in the UK | Pod Point

Learn about how the government is looking to use planning and the regulatory regime to ensure the provision of chargepoints in UK developments.

pod-point.com

I'm increasingly of the opinion I should go at least hybrid. I'm not sure Spain is ready enough for ev.

 

[Leafster]

Another thing to note is that in some rural areas in the UK the Grid isn't able to provide enough power for fast and super fast chargers in some locations. My brother runs a business in the Cotswolds and would love to provide fast charging for his customers but can't because of the limitations of the Grid.

 

[lazythursday]

Another thing to note is that in some rural areas in the UK the Grid isn't able to provide enough power for fast and super fast chargers in some locations. My brother runs a business in the Cotswolds and would love to provide fast charging for his customers but can't because of the limitations of the Grid.

The local grid is really shit in some places - it's managed separately from the national grid and has been poorly invested in until recently, and I don't think it's always rural areas with issues - I seem to remember Merseyside is particularly bad in terms of grid capacity. But I think upgrading this now has much higher priority from the distribution network operators.

 

[Cid]

I'm increasingly of the opinion I should go at least hybrid. I'm not sure Spain is ready enough for ev.

No rush really... I mean if you're buying a new car anyway, and do a fair number of short trips, then sure. But Spain will have to start investing sooner or later, I dunno what the overall EU policy is, but I imagine there is one.

 

[dessiato]

No rush really... I mean if you're buying a new car anyway, and do a fair number of short trips, then sure. But Spain will have to start investing sooner or later, I dunno what the overall EU policy is, but I imagine there is one.

That's my real issue over EV. Many, if not most, of my trips are of between one and three hours. Most of the time, at the moment at least, the car sits in the garage. This will change now we are moving.

 

[BigTom]

No rush really... I mean if you're buying a new car anyway, and do a fair number of short trips, then sure. But Spain will have to start investing sooner or later, I dunno what the overall EU policy is, but I imagine there is one.

EU proposal to ban sales of new ICE cars from 2035 went forward last month: EU proposes effective ban for new fossil-fuel cars from 2035
Spain themselves set "a target" of a ban in 2040, but that was back in 2018: Spain wants to ban sale of petrol and diesel cars from 2040 (Update)

I thought the EU as a whole had already agreed 2040 as an end to new ICE vehicle sales but I don't think that was agreed, just proposed, and now the proposal has changed to pull it forward to 2035.

 

[Cid]

That's my real issue over EV. Many, if not most, of my trips are of between one and three hours. Most of the time, at the moment at least, the car sits in the garage. This will change now we are moving.

I mean if you're doing a lot of shorter trips and keep on top of charging, of course a hybrid is worth it - mostly using the electric motor. But otherwise, kind of whatever really - not going to have the greatest impact. Especially if you buy new/near new which obviously comes with manufacturing energy costs. It would only take one charging point in your longer trips to make a full EV viable after all.

 

[dessiato]

I mean if you're doing a lot of shorter trips and keep on top of charging, of course a hybrid is worth it - mostly using the electric motor. But otherwise, kind of whatever really - not going to have the greatest impact. Especially if you buy new/near new which obviously comes with manufacturing energy costs. It would only take one charging point in your longer trips to make a full EV viable after all.

My last single trip was 1k and a bit km. The speed and ease of stopping, filling the tank and continuing is, currently (pun intended) not being matched by availability of, nor speed of, charging. One day...

 

[Leafster]

My last single trip was 1k and a bit km. The speed and ease of stopping, filling the tank and continuing is, currently (pun intended) not being matched by availability of, nor speed of, charging. One day...

I've thought a fair bit about the sort of journeys I do over a normal (non-covid) year.

Most of my journeys would be between 5 and 25 miles (one-way) and just having a charger at home would cover all of these. No more wasted time having to go to a filling station!

I probably do around 5 journeys a year which would be more than 100 but less than 150 miles (one-way) so it's possible that with something like a VW ID3 I might even be able to do each round trip without having to charge. However, one quick top up stop/ loo break / coffee on my way back would definitely add enough charge in 15-20 minutes.

I rarely do any longer journeys than that but thinking back over the last few years it's probably once a year where I've driven between 200 to 250 (one-way). These would probably mean a longer charge at the destination although, even these, could probably be done with a few "loo stops" instead.

I'd say that each of the longer journeys will include long stretches of motorway so I'm definitely going to find working chargers along the way.

 

[Cid]

My last single trip was 1k and a bit km. The speed and ease of stopping, filling the tank and continuing is, currently (pun intended) not being matched by availability of, nor speed of, charging. One day...

You did say 1-3 hours, I doubt even the most reprehensible of these boards do 330km/h. But yeah, it is what it is. I was mostly saying you may as well stick with your existing ICE over a hybrid, unless you do a lot of short trips.

 

[dessiato]

You did say 1-3 hours, I doubt even the most reprehensible of these boards do 330km/h. But yeah, it is what it is. I was mostly saying you may as well stick with your existing ICE over a hybrid, unless you do a lot of short trips.

I said 1 to 3 hours is my normal trip. But lately I've been doing longer. Mind you 330kmh does appeal

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

330kph = 205mph. An RS6 can do it. There should be special roads to allow those skilled enough and with the correct gear to move about at such a pace, such as ski resorts do with the double diamond runs. And maybe something similar to blue runs for the teuchters to flail around on with the yummy mummies and toddlers.

 

[mx wcfc]

mrs mx's hybrid contract is up. Mrs mx likes getting a new car every three years. I don't want her to get a newer version of her Mitsubishi Outlander, cos the mpg when it's burning petrol is shite, and all-electric cars are better than they were 6 (?) years ago when we got trapped in the personal contract leasing type deal.

I'm pointing her towards the Kia e-Niro, which always scores well in the reviews, particularly on a bangs per buck basis.

anyone got one - opinions?

 

[teuchter]

There should be special roads to allow those skilled enough and with the correct gear to move about at such a pace,

They are called high speed railways. Sorry you aren't qualified to drive on one.

 

[DownwardDog]

330kph = 205mph. An RS6 can do it.

A stock one won't.

 

[teuchter]

I can sense everyone's getting their testosterone out and wants to start talking about illegal mods or something.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I can sense everyone's getting their testosterone out and wants to start talking about illegal mods or something.

What's illegal about modifying your car?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

A stock one won't.

teuchter, running late for a train spotter convention in Brighton last summer…

 

[Cid]

330kph = 205mph. An RS6 can do it. There should be special roads to allow those skilled enough and with the correct gear to move about at such a pace, such as ski resorts do with the double diamond runs. And maybe something similar to blue runs for the teuchters to flail around on with the yummy mummies and toddlers.

I absolutely agree. They should be as challenging as possible, lots of tight chicanes. And in nice places too, with cliffs and trees, and the odd drystone wall… the criteria for entry should be that you think you can handle it. Lifetime ban if you’re worse than 10% off the fastest pace.

 

[Cid]

The isle of Mann in fact. It can be renamed to Man Island, it will have a diverse selection of lagers and Fred Perry shops.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Keep it to the other thread chaps, please?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

EU proposal to ban sales of new ICE cars from 2035 went forward last month: EU proposes effective ban for new fossil-fuel cars from 2035
Spain themselves set "a target" of a ban in 2040, but that was back in 2018: Spain wants to ban sale of petrol and diesel cars from 2040 (Update)

I thought the EU as a whole had already agreed 2040 as an end to new ICE vehicle sales but I don't think that was agreed, just proposed, and now the proposal has changed to pull it forward to 2035.

So, no new ICE cars from 2035, a useful life of at least 15 years or more for those…

We aren’t going full electric for a long time yet.