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Electric cars

. "edit: Having just looked in Valladolid there are a whopping 20 charging points of various kinds though...."

There's approx 299000 people in Valladolid. But only one charge point where I was. I suppose I could have driven around looking for some, but I'd prefer, when I'm driving through somewhere, not to have to do that.

It'll come.
I suspect we'll all have to get used to thinking about "filling up" on a long journey in a different way. I'm pretty sure some EVs will point out chargers when you plot in your route. I'm certain Tesla do.

You certainly wouldn't need to drive around looking for a charger in the UK (and many other countries) as there are apps, which I've mentioned before, which will let you know where they are, whether they're working and what type of charger they are.
 
Tbf most people with an electric car probably live in the modern world and use Google map or their inbuilt navagation screen shit to find charge points. I doubt many people drive around looking or hoping to come across one, like my dad does with buying petrol/finding gas stations.

Andddd I know this is the refuseniks vs the moralising judgemental types thread, but I'm still not convinced environmentally that producing/shipping a new electric car and then producing electricty is any better than running a small economical petrol engined car. Especially if that old car is then shipped abroad and carries on being used in developing countries. And if electricity is from fossil fuels.
 
Tbf most people with an electric car probably live in the modern world and use Google map or their inbuilt navagation screen shit to find charge points. I doubt many people drive around looking or hoping to come across one, like my dad does with buying petrol/finding gas stations.

Andddd I know this is the refuseniks vs the moralising judgemental types thread, but I'm still not convinced environmentally that producing/shipping a new electric car and then producing electricty is any better than running a small economical petrol engined car. Especially if that old car is then shipped abroad and carries on being used in developing countries. And if electricity is from fossil fuels.
I'll ignore the implication that I don't live in the modern world. 😀

My sat nav finds petrol stations en route, and displays them on screen. It will do the same with ev charge points too.

Your final point I completely agree with. There's a huge amount of environmental damage from production of the metals for batteries, before you consider the costs of shipping these metals around the world for refining etc. I think ev will be the way we all go in the end, but it is, IMO, wrong to say they are not damaging. They just give other problems, in other places.
 
Andddd I know this is the refuseniks vs the moralising judgemental types thread, but I'm still not convinced environmentally that producing/shipping a new electric car and then producing electricty is any better than running a small economical petrol engined car. Especially if that old car is then shipped abroad and carries on being used in developing countries. And if electricity is from fossil fuels.

We've talked a lot on this thread about how EV's are not an environmentally good thing, they can't be as private cars on this scale cannot be. What we are dealing with is degrees of bad.

You're right to make the point about how the electricity is produced and how 'green' your EV is will depend very much on where you live. If you like in Iceland then its about as 'green' as a private car can get but if you live in a country with a very dirty grid (such as Germany or Poland) than you're currently substituting one fossil fuel for another. I will say it again though an EV will be as clean as the grid and as grids are cleaned up an EV will be getting cleaner and cleaner. An ICE car can only ever run on fossil fuel for its whole life.

As someone who drives a so called modern 'cleaner' ICE car I will say honestly that they are still shit. Talking about trying to make ICE cars cleaner is deckchairs on the Titanic stuff.

Anyway, even if our grids are still far too dirty there has to be some improvement for our choked towns and cities. I was walking around Bristol over the weekend and as I do I was looking at the architecture and as beautiful as a lot of it is so much of it is filthy dirty. Years of exposure to toxic fumes being pumped into the air. Then there's this from my home city:


As someone who has lived very near primary schools for the best part of two decades it never ceases to amaze me how many parents will quite happily park outside the school gates and leave their engines idling because they want the heater on or the AC or more often than not they're parked somewhere they shouldn't and want to escape quickly should a traffic warden turn up. Just sat there pumping poisonous air into the classrooms and and playgrounds where their children are. The disconnect is extraordinary.

I appreciate the situation in London is a lot more complicated than just private cars (large commercial vehicles etc) but surely EV's with no emissions have to be an improvement on just pretending we can get by on ever such slight improvements to ICE cars or people will suddenly just decide to give up their cars?

We live in a society that is so wedded to the idea of private car ownership. I look around at the amount of houses in London that have multiple cars. I see cars parked on the street that are clearly hardly ever used and despite all the costs involved people still choose to retain them. If this is how it is in London with such a good public transport network than what hope do we have elsewhere?

I don't believe there is a viable and achievable short cut to fixing this problem. Its not that I don't want it to happen I just cannot see a pathway to how it comes about. It will need a very strong top down approach from government which will not happen at the moment because they know full well enough people won't vote for it. In the meantime EV's are at least a step in the right direction and besides its happening so we may as well get on board with it.
 
EVs are a little bit like HS2 in this regard - neither of them necessarily lead to the more fundamental changes in approaches to transport that we really need to make, but they make more fundamental changes in the future easier rather than more difficult. A move to EVs is an infrastructural change.
 
We live in a society that is so wedded to the idea of private car ownership. I look around at the amount of houses in London that have multiple cars. I see cars parked on the street that are clearly hardly ever used and despite all the costs involved people still choose to retain them. If this is how it is in London with such a good public transport network than what hope do we have elsewhere?
This is really a topic for a separate thread on the new Climate Change forum when it gets set up but we do need to address why we need so many cars and why we use them as much as we do.

The point about kids being driven to school is interesting as I'm part of the generation who used to walk to primary school and used the "school bus" to get to secondary school even though I grew up in a rural area.

What changed? Is it the perception that kids won't be safe walking to school? Do kids need to travel further to get to school? Is there less funding for local authorities to provide transport? Or something else?

I try to take a walk before work and one of my routes takes me past the local primary school. There's always a huge line of cars parked outside in the morning and even now it still surprises me. The catchment covers an area no more than a mile and half from the school so why do so many parents drive their kids to school. I even walk past one car that I then often see parked outside the school and it's back outside the house when I walk back. It's a ten minute walk at most!

I know this is only one aspect of car use but what could or should be done to try to ensure kids can walk to school?
 
This is really a topic for a separate thread on the new Climate Change forum when it gets set up but we do need to address why we need so many cars and why we use them as much as we do.

The point about kids being driven to school is interesting as I'm part of the generation who used to walk to primary school and used the "school bus" to get to secondary school even though I grew up in a rural area.

What changed? Is it the perception that kids won't be safe walking to school? Do kids need to travel further to get to school? Is there less funding for local authorities to provide transport? Or something else?
Parents changed. They started buying their children 1000 quid iPhones, and driving them 200 yards to school in case their toes got a bit cold.
 
I think it's partly a result of parents being able to choose which school they send their kids to, meaning many kids don't just go to the one nearest to where they live.

But it's also the result of various car dependency vicious circles. For example, the fewer kids that are walking to school, the more the perception that it's not safe.
 
I wonder whether the school run is anything more than a reflection of the general increase of people driving short distances? My instinct with school journeys (just anecdata) - in London at least - is that parents are more likely to drive kids to school if they drive to work themselves (i.e. they drop kids off on the way).

I doubt in London that increased school choice makes a huge difference as the density of schools is so high that even a far-flung choice will still be relatively close.

No doubt the situation is different in rural areas.
 
We've talked a lot on this thread about how EV's are not an environmentally good thing, they can't be as private cars on this scale cannot be. What we are dealing with is degrees of bad.

You're right to make the point about how the electricity is produced and how 'green' your EV is will depend very much on where you live. If you like in Iceland then its about as 'green' as a private car can get but if you live in a country with a very dirty grid (such as Germany or Poland) than you're currently substituting one fossil fuel for another. I will say it again though an EV will be as clean as the grid and as grids are cleaned up an EV will be getting cleaner and cleaner. An ICE car can only ever run on fossil fuel for its whole life.

As someone who drives a so called modern 'cleaner' ICE car I will say honestly that they are still shit. Talking about trying to make ICE cars cleaner is deckchairs on the Titanic stuff.

Anyway, even if our grids are still far too dirty there has to be some improvement for our choked towns and cities. I was walking around Bristol over the weekend and as I do I was looking at the architecture and as beautiful as a lot of it is so much of it is filthy dirty. Years of exposure to toxic fumes being pumped into the air. Then there's this from my home city:


As someone who has lived very near primary schools for the best part of two decades it never ceases to amaze me how many parents will quite happily park outside the school gates and leave their engines idling because they want the heater on or the AC or more often than not they're parked somewhere they shouldn't and want to escape quickly should a traffic warden turn up. Just sat there pumping poisonous air into the classrooms and and playgrounds where their children are. The disconnect is extraordinary.

I appreciate the situation in London is a lot more complicated than just private cars (large commercial vehicles etc) but surely EV's with no emissions have to be an improvement on just pretending we can get by on ever such slight improvements to ICE cars or people will suddenly just decide to give up their cars?

We live in a society that is so wedded to the idea of private car ownership. I look around at the amount of houses in London that have multiple cars. I see cars parked on the street that are clearly hardly ever used and despite all the costs involved people still choose to retain them. If this is how it is in London with such a good public transport network than what hope do we have elsewhere?

I don't believe there is a viable and achievable short cut to fixing this problem. Its not that I don't want it to happen I just cannot see a pathway to how it comes about. It will need a very strong top down approach from government which will not happen at the moment because they know full well enough people won't vote for it. In the meantime EV's are at least a step in the right direction and besides its happening so we may as well get on board with it.
An EV is not just as clean as the grid powering it. There are a whole other series of environmental issues based around the manufacture and then disposal of the batteries, never mind the rest of the vehicle as well.

Cars are the problem. What powers them is a sideshow.
 
Fund school busses, fund accompanied walk (or use other public transport) to school initiatives. Parking fees (or outright bans) at the school gates. And again we always come back to this thing with transport infrastructure that where we live, work and study is increasingly dispersed.

I've not seen a lollipop lady in the last couple of decades.
 
Too many cars, or fundamentally too many people around driving cars, and doing plenty of other things, are the actual problem.

Since reducing the number of people around wouldn't be a very nice to do, we need to try reduce the number of car miles driven as well as improve their environmental footprint.

Reduce. Not get rid of.
 
See this is why we need the climate change forum, this discussion has veered into the territory of the 'fuck cars' thread, which is fundamentally broken.

Yes, an interesting conversation to be had but not on a this thread really.

Anyway, to change the subject back I'd be interested to know how many people here have actually driven an EV? Not a hybrid or a Twizzy or similar but a proper mass market EV.

Leaving the environmental issues aside for a moment it seems to me a lot of pushback is from people who don't want to give up their engines and spark plugs. The national press coverage (rather than specialist motoring press) has been universally terrible when it comes down to EV's. Garbage journalism by agenda heavy or motoring illiterate journos. I wonder how many people have formed negative views on EV's yet have never driven one?

I'll be honest I've only ever driven one on a short test drive.
 
I haven't driven an EV yet. There seemed to be little point in going through all the hassle unless I was actually in the market for one.

I'm in two minds about going to the Fully Charged Live event next weekend - Fully Charged LIVE! 3rd - 5th September 2021 | Fully Charged Show

Since the pandemic began I've been avoiding crowds so I'm a bit hesitant. If I do go, then they appear to have a range of EVs available to test drive so I might try to book a slot or two.
 
Not driven one, have driven a milk float though.

We're seriously considering one, will get a small manual petrol job though for us to use and BB1 to learn in and then for her to keep when we go electric.
 
Yes, an interesting conversation to be had but not on a this thread really.

Anyway, to change the subject back I'd be interested to know how many people here have actually driven an EV? Not a hybrid or a Twizzy or similar but a proper mass market EV.

Leaving the environmental issues aside for a moment it seems to me a lot of pushback is from people who don't want to give up their engines and spark plugs. The national press coverage (rather than specialist motoring press) has been universally terrible when it comes down to EV's. Garbage journalism by agenda heavy or motoring illiterate journos. I wonder how many people have formed negative views on EV's yet have never driven one?

I'll be honest I've only ever driven one on a short test drive.
I've driven a few. I love the acceleration, and once you get used to the lack of engine noise there's not much to dislike.. . Except they're shite, unless you live somewhere with off street parking and your own charging point, because 'Filling up' on journeys is ridiculous nonsense. 'Ooh I'll just stop for some juice for an hour on my way to work, and wait 83 hours in the queue'
 
We are in Glasgow using a car club; details here. Have driven a Renault Zoe and a BMW i3.

Caveat that I don’t know anything about cars, but my impression was that the Zoe was surprisingly old fashioned and low tech. Didn’t feel that different to my 2005 Prius (in fact the interior was worse). Drove like a bit of a bucket.

The BMW by contrast was like something from a different planet. Fancy interior tech; felt very classy. Some kind of magic seemed to keep it stuck to the road no matter what the bend/speed. Amazing handling.
My recent experience here ^

Have also driven a Tesla (the one with the de Lorean doors) in San Francisco.
 
One problem with electric cars, at least at the moment, is that virtually nobody who owns one has it as their only mode of transport. I think it's somewhere between 80 and 90% of EV owners bought the electric car in addition to any IC engined car(s) they already owned, which obviously makes them far worse than Hitler.
 
The change is gonna come, so lets make the most of it.. will ICE classics be denied a place in an enthusiasts garage? Probably not. Will running an ICE vehicle be more and more expensive as the costs of electric vehicles comes down, probably.
 
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At some point in the future there'll be a "Heritage Internal Combustion Roadway" scene where you can go and watch Ford mondeos and toyota corollas drive along a slightly shonky bit of disused road, and see demonstrations of how your great-grandparents used to fill the tanks of these machines at a "petrol station".
 
At some point in the future there'll be a "Heritage Internal Combustion Roadway" scene where you can go and watch Ford mondeos and toyota corollas drive along a slightly shonky bit of disused road, and see demonstrations of how your great-grandparents used to fill the tanks of these machines at a "petrol station".
We'll all be long dead by then, so I'm OK with that.
 
As steam engines have just been mentioned, it seems appropriate to ask. I was wondering how the arrival of the diesel train locomotive was first received by railway enthusiasts, and the wider public & the media at the time.

I know nowadays Diesel locos are revered by aficionados, but what was the reaction when they started to replace steam engines? I’d imagine they weren’t all that popular to begin with?
 
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