weltweit
Well-Known Member
Speak for yourself, I plan on still being very much around!!
Electric cars
- Thread starter ch750536
- Start date
cybershot
Well-Known Member
We've talked a lot on this thread about how EV's are not an environmentally good thing, they can't be as private cars on this scale cannot be. What we are dealing with is degrees of bad.
You're right to make the point about how the electricity is produced and how 'green' your EV is will depend very much on where you live. If you like in Iceland then its about as 'green' as a private car can get but if you live in a country with a very dirty grid (such as Germany or Poland) than you're currently substituting one fossil fuel for another. I will say it again though an EV will be as clean as the grid and as grids are cleaned up an EV will be getting cleaner and cleaner. An ICE car can only ever run on fossil fuel for its whole life.
As someone who drives a so called modern 'cleaner' ICE car I will say honestly that they are still shit. Talking about trying to make ICE cars cleaner is deckchairs on the Titanic stuff.
Anyway, even if our grids are still far too dirty there has to be some improvement for our choked towns and cities. I was walking around Bristol over the weekend and as I do I was looking at the architecture and as beautiful as a lot of it is so much of it is filthy dirty. Years of exposure to toxic fumes being pumped into the air. Then there's this from my home city:
Nearly every London school in high air pollution area, report says
Some 98% of London schools are in areas with high air pollution, City Hall analysis suggests.www.bbc.co.uk
As someone who has lived very near primary schools for the best part of two decades it never ceases to amaze me how many parents will quite happily park outside the school gates and leave their engines idling because they want the heater on or the AC or more often than not they're parked somewhere they shouldn't and want to escape quickly should a traffic warden turn up. Just sat there pumping poisonous air into the classrooms and and playgrounds where their children are. The disconnect is extraordinary.
I appreciate the situation in London is a lot more complicated than just private cars (large commercial vehicles etc) but surely EV's with no emissions have to be an improvement on just pretending we can get by on ever such slight improvements to ICE cars or people will suddenly just decide to give up their cars?
We live in a society that is so wedded to the idea of private car ownership. I look around at the amount of houses in London that have multiple cars. I see cars parked on the street that are clearly hardly ever used and despite all the costs involved people still choose to retain them. If this is how it is in London with such a good public transport network than what hope do we have elsewhere?
I don't believe there is a viable and achievable short cut to fixing this problem. Its not that I don't want it to happen I just cannot see a pathway to how it comes about. It will need a very strong top down approach from government which will not happen at the moment because they know full well enough people won't vote for it. In the meantime EV's are at least a step in the right direction and besides its happening so we may as well get on board with it.
I honestly think car ownership will die a death. Maybe sooner than we think. It all depends on how quickly autonomous cars can become a real thing and how quickly we can persuade humans to stop driving. Maybe by the time I retire or at least close to dying I would think this is a close reality.
once cars drive themselves why do you need to own one? Uber/Apple/google/Microsoft/TFL/ whatever will have fleets of the fuckers stored in multi stories. You call one from your phone to take you where you need to be for x o clock. Not in a rush. Share your journey with others for a cheaper fare.
job done and people can have front gardens again.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
Sounds like the perfect utopia... But we've had buses and trains for how long? And we can't even get that right.
cybershot
Well-Known Member
Well, they don’t take you door to door for a start. This would.
T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
But it’s not inconceivable either that they‘ll be available in droves on every street, instantly available and bookable with a phone up, and much cheaper to run vs car ownership. Hell, it’s already started to happen in London with Zipcar.
So you could end up with cities bearing a decent reduction of total cars parked on the street, but perhaps not that many fewer journeys. In fact, I can see how plenty of it people who can drive but see owning a car uneconomical, might start making car journeys they wouldn’t be able to make today if tomorrow there are going to be lots of pay-per-mile electric cars available outside their front door.
In short, whereas an end to private car ownership would certainly free up kerbside space, I’m not convinced at all the advent of fully autonomous cars widely available for hire is going to have that much of an effect in traffic journeys in towns and cities.
cybershot
Well-Known Member
It won’t. If anything it will be worse as people that can’t drive will no longer need to rely on buses and trains. But that wasn’t the point I was discussing which was car ownership. Hopefully the pay by the mile concept would see them relegated from streets to designated parking lots for repairs/cleaning and what not. Autonomous means they should be able to go at a decent speed and not have to counter for last second human changes of mind. You’ll still need to allow extra time for rush hours and what not and as already pointed out ‘modern people’ are already using apps that tell them the best time to leave and what traffic conditions are and change your route depending on traffic building up.
This still doesn’t solve the problem of cars, but theoretically would help stop them being a blight on our streets and people can get their front lawns back. Who knows maybe we’ll have people carrying drones just as quickly, then roads can finally do one. But anyway. I digress. Back to the topic lads.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
I don't know how old you are.
My feeling is a gradual step by step progress. Electric vehicles first, then more car sharing and after that by perhaps some time autonomy. And the step that is most tenuous is autonomy.
I don't think - that they can drive themselves is the revolutionary step, I drive it drives so what the journey is made. If cars are provided as a service - self drive or driver driven that is what will have a chance of reducing car ownership.
T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
Regarding the overall environmental footprint, from initial manufacture to scrapping of EVs vs ICEs, one aspect some people here seem to be overlooking is the direct, concentrated pollution caused every day by fossil fuel cars in particularly congested roads- which EVs wouldn’t cause.
Even if the lifetime emissions between the two end up amounting to similar amounts, the concentration of emissions by ICE cars in large cities are directly responsible for premature deaths and respiratory conditions that simply wouldn’t happen if all vehicles were electric. The overall effect on the global climate and the planet itself might end up being the same, but aside from that there is no denying that direct local pollution from fossil fuel vehicles causes extra deaths and illness to those around many busy urban areas.
Even if the lifetime emissions between the two end up amounting to similar amounts, the concentration of emissions by ICE cars in large cities are directly responsible for premature deaths and respiratory conditions that simply wouldn’t happen if all vehicles were electric. The overall effect on the global climate and the planet itself might end up being the same, but aside from that there is no denying that direct local pollution from fossil fuel vehicles causes extra deaths and illness to those around many busy urban areas.
Elpenor
Dancing as fast as I can
I see autonomous vehicles as being a major threat to public transport especially in affluent suburbs - why share a bus / train when you can get an Uber? This will mean that public transport becomes or is perceived to be more dangerous / expensive / crime ridden etc
I also think it’s only an urban solution. I live in a village several miles from Exeter, there’s not going to be cars hanging round here on demand to serve the 500 inhabitants when there’s far richer pickings in the town. But then not surprising that the brave new world only works within narrow parameters as the tech bros who come up with these ideas tend to have quite narrow life experience.
cybershot
Well-Known Member
I dunno. We already have had electric charging points installed in our only village car park. The car park could easily be converted into a small ‘autonomous car hub’ remember car parks won’t be needed anymore in this ideal utopia.
Anyway I’ve took this off topic enough.
Leafster
.
I've been to Fully Charged Live Outside today. I would say the most popular new car stands were the VW and Stellantis (Peugeot, Citroen/DS, Vauxhall/Opel Fiat etc). By far the biggest queue for test drives was for the VW ID3 and ID4. Even though I got there early all the ID3 test drive slots were gone so I got to drive an ID4 Pro performance - my first EV drive.
The ID4 is bigger than I thought it would be and has plenty of space inside. I'd say more space inside than an ICE car of similar dimensions. It was very comfortable and although it was pretty quiet there's a fair bit of road noise through the tyres and suspension. More road noise than I was expecting compared to my current ICE BMW 3 series. I think it had the 19" wheels which probably didn't help.
It has two settings for the regenerative braking; the first is pretty mild but the second was almost one pedal driving and very easy to get used to.
The acceleration was OK but not mind blowing and actually slower than my BMW. The only difference was there was no need to change gear so less work on my part. The other thing I thought about was comparing it to the last automatic I drove (a BMW 530) and it's definitely less noisy than having ICE auto-box whirring away all the time. I didn't think the VW bloke who accompanied me would have been pleased with me chucking it round any corners but I did get the feeling it wallowed a bit. He said the ID3 behaved a little better.
The inside felt reasonably solid but it's not up to BMW standard.
So many of the cars on show were too large. I liked the look of both the Kia EV6 and the Hyundai Ioniq 5 but they are huge - far bigger than I'd ever need. The only smaller car that took my eye (apart from the ID3) was the Citroen EC4. I still like the look of the BMW i3 but the range lets it down.
The ID4 is bigger than I thought it would be and has plenty of space inside. I'd say more space inside than an ICE car of similar dimensions. It was very comfortable and although it was pretty quiet there's a fair bit of road noise through the tyres and suspension. More road noise than I was expecting compared to my current ICE BMW 3 series. I think it had the 19" wheels which probably didn't help.
It has two settings for the regenerative braking; the first is pretty mild but the second was almost one pedal driving and very easy to get used to.
The acceleration was OK but not mind blowing and actually slower than my BMW. The only difference was there was no need to change gear so less work on my part. The other thing I thought about was comparing it to the last automatic I drove (a BMW 530) and it's definitely less noisy than having ICE auto-box whirring away all the time. I didn't think the VW bloke who accompanied me would have been pleased with me chucking it round any corners but I did get the feeling it wallowed a bit. He said the ID3 behaved a little better.
The inside felt reasonably solid but it's not up to BMW standard.
So many of the cars on show were too large. I liked the look of both the Kia EV6 and the Hyundai Ioniq 5 but they are huge - far bigger than I'd ever need. The only smaller car that took my eye (apart from the ID3) was the Citroen EC4. I still like the look of the BMW i3 but the range lets it down.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Audis might be widely viewed as a wanker's car, but if I had the cash required I would totally get me their new e-tron GT. I think it looks fucking stunning...
They do look good. Afaik they are basically Taycans though, if I were in the market for a ~£120k milkfloat I think the Porsche may win it, especially as they now do an estate-ish version.
DownwardDog
Riding a Brompton with a power meter.
Piaggio, KTM, Honda and Yamaha set up swappable batteries consortium
Italian scooter maker Piaggio said on Monday it had set up a consortium with Honda Motor Co. (7267.T), KTM AG and Yamaha Motor Co. (7272.T) to encourage the use of swappable batteries for electric motorcycles and light electric vehicles.
www.reuters.com
Swappable batteries make a lot more sense for scooters and motorbikes as they are much smaller and more accessible.
rubbershoes
not the only raver in the village
Much more nickable too
It looks like a re-purposed ICE car rather than an EV built from the ground up. There's nothing especially wrong with that but starting from scratch does provide so many opportunities without having to worry about engine bays and the transmission tunnel.
Obviously its a lot cheaper to just re-purpose an existing design and a lot safer* as people have an expectation of how a car should look which will perhaps change and adapt more slowly.
*Safer as in being more conservative in design rather than safer as in not getting you killed.
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Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Yeah, I think people will be happier to go with a car that looks like a car they know and feel comfortable with, the BMW I8 was a bit too futuristic for many tastes...
It'll be interesting to see whether people are ready for the Ionic 5 and the Kia EV6. Everyone loves the idea of futuristic until it comes down to the moment the wallet is opened.
Despite being completly built from scratch EV's Tesla have been pretty conservative with their designs.
DownwardDog
Riding a Brompton with a power meter.
Porsche Mission R is fabulous.
steeplejack
trapped lbw for a duck
I agree we're probably in the last 10-20 years of private car ownership being affordable for most of us. I can see in 20 years time that ICE car tax & petrol will be prohibitively expensive and mileage limited, mainly for "heritage" vehicles. Maybe it's time to invest in that Jowett Javelin or Humber Sceptre after all.
Short term car leasing and hiring is the way to go- you use the car strictly when you have to and it's owned by a co-op, like co-wheels. I've just recently bought what will definitely be my last ICE car. The electric infrastructure just isn't quite there yet if you don't own your own home (and therefore charging point), live outside a big city, and you regularly have to drive long distances. But I hope use of the ICE will decline steeply in the second half of this decade.
Have to laugh at someone whinging that the Renault Zoe is "a bit of a bucket". Fucks sakes. Having driven one on short term hire a few times it's a lovely car to drive and has everything you need for the city/ short hop drive outside. Quiet, comfortable, very easy to drive, and actually, unusually for an EV, affordable. Whinging that the interior isn't up to much is real first world problem stuff.
I love cars, love car history and car design. I can tell an Elva apart from a Ginetta. But...I can't argue against cars now being the problem, and that moving beyond owning them and driving them as indivduals is a challenge we all have to crack. EVs might be part of a transitional solution to obviate the worst polluting of mass ICE ownership, but it's only transitional. In the long term we have to find another way of moving about or, find a way to stop moving about so much.
It's a bit sad, but I can't see a way for mass car ownership to continue sustainably. Probably folk said the same about the demise of the horse as mass transport at the beginning of the twentieth century.
Short term car leasing and hiring is the way to go- you use the car strictly when you have to and it's owned by a co-op, like co-wheels. I've just recently bought what will definitely be my last ICE car. The electric infrastructure just isn't quite there yet if you don't own your own home (and therefore charging point), live outside a big city, and you regularly have to drive long distances. But I hope use of the ICE will decline steeply in the second half of this decade.
Have to laugh at someone whinging that the Renault Zoe is "a bit of a bucket". Fucks sakes. Having driven one on short term hire a few times it's a lovely car to drive and has everything you need for the city/ short hop drive outside. Quiet, comfortable, very easy to drive, and actually, unusually for an EV, affordable. Whinging that the interior isn't up to much is real first world problem stuff.
I love cars, love car history and car design. I can tell an Elva apart from a Ginetta. But...I can't argue against cars now being the problem, and that moving beyond owning them and driving them as indivduals is a challenge we all have to crack. EVs might be part of a transitional solution to obviate the worst polluting of mass ICE ownership, but it's only transitional. In the long term we have to find another way of moving about or, find a way to stop moving about so much.
It's a bit sad, but I can't see a way for mass car ownership to continue sustainably. Probably folk said the same about the demise of the horse as mass transport at the beginning of the twentieth century.
In fairness I think that was as much about the difference between a cheap French car and an expensive German car then it was about EV's as such.
steeplejack
trapped lbw for a duck
still first-world problem whinging, though.
BigTom
Well-Known Member
England will be first country to require new homes to include EV chargers [Update]
The British government is going to require all newly built homes and offices to feature electric vehicle chargers in England.
electrek.co
All new homes and offices will be required to have EV charging points installed from 2022:
There's not a lot of detail anywhere that I can find. Does this mean that all new homes will have to have off road parking spaces?
Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
Many flats don’t have any spaces at all and are designated as car free. The last place I lived in (Zone 1) was like this.England will be first country to require new homes to include EV chargers [Update]
The British government is going to require all newly built homes and offices to feature electric vehicle chargers in England.
All new homes and offices will be required to have EV charging points installed from 2022:
There's not a lot of detail anywhere that I can find. Does this mean that all new homes will have to have off road parking spaces?
Cid
Proper break this time
England will be first country to require new homes to include EV chargers [Update]
The British government is going to require all newly built homes and offices to feature electric vehicle chargers in England.
All new homes and offices will be required to have EV charging points installed from 2022:
There's not a lot of detail anywhere that I can find. Does this mean that all new homes will have to have off road parking spaces?
Almost certainly no.
Cid
Proper break this time
Electric vehicle charge points in residential and non-residential buildings
Proposals to alter existing residential and non-residential buildings regulations to include electric vehicle infrastructure requirements.
Is a couple of years ago, but I suppose forms the basis.
Summary:
So residential looks as though you need a charger for every space provided, but doesn't set any requirements for spaces.
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