EDL watch

[cantsin]

Me, you and 39th steps have prob been talking about this for twenty years now - maybe at the start point of that debate there was something the organised left or specifically anti-fascist groups could do. Some longer term intervention. Now there isn't as far as i can see. Just filmed set pieces. Which means, the class rather than the left has to do this.

what do you think if the FLA, and their relationship to the class ?

 

[butchersapron]

what do you think if the FLA, and their relationship to the class ?

I don't know enough yet and i'm not going on facebook to do research - enough people i can trust to do that. Gen consensus is miles better than UBA were 15 years or whatever a go. Impressive numbers. That might be the problem - you know the weasels are fighting to get in there and hide. I don't go anymore either

 

[butchersapron]

what do you think if the FLA, and their relationship to the class ?

In terms of class - it's obv far more directly working class in the sense of not being a load of teachers (blair peach was a teacher before anyone thinks i'm sneering) than...here i have nothing to compare it to. A cross class demo like an anti-war thing.

 

[Red Sky]

You are one boring motherfucker.

Funny, cos you're the cunt who keeps repeating himself.

 

[The39thStep]

By that standard everyone should be demonstrating against them surely?
I'm not sure you've really got a point. Are you trying to suggest there's something hypocritical about opposing, say the National Front, without devoting an equal amount of energy, using similar tactics to opposing jihadists?

Not sure hypocritical is the right word but if anti fascism is about the defence of the working class then the working class has to be defended

 

[editor]

Some EDL twat has made the march all about his shitty agenda.

 

[19force8]

The39thStep I don't agree.

We oppose fascists because of their role in the class struggle. They provide a means by which the ruling class can destroy working class organisation and resistance in times of extreme crisis. The ways we oppose fascists reflect that role - we drive them out of our unions, we deny them the political space to propagandise by refusing to share a platform with them and wherever possible denying them a platform, we make sure they are opposed whenever they try to march or demonstrate, finally, we make it known that they are fascists and not (just?) the patriots or Christians or whatever cover they seek to use.

The various strands of extreme Islamic fundamentalism are unable (and do not seek) to serve the same function in the UK, so they don't present the same threat to the working class. Also, they organise differently and with different goals. Therefore we need to find different ways to oppose them.

What is a march "against extremism" for?

Is it for working with Muslim communities helping them fight the racism discrimination and abuse they face?

Or is it for supporting the government's Prevent programme and getting people to grass on their family and friends for thought crimes?

More importantly, how will such a march be perceived by communities that have faced years of BNP/EDL/NF/BF thugs being escorted through their towns?

This is why "the left" doesn't organise "anti-jihadist" demonstrations. Just as we didn't organise anti-IRA marches during the troubles. In fact we campaigned for Troops Out and in support of the hunger strikers.

The best way for the non-Muslim left in the UK to oppose jihadist terrorism is to provide an alternate pole of attraction through our unions and our parties, by building the fight against racism and fascism, and by opposing bloody imperialist adventures.

 

[butchersapron]

...and by teaming up with the same top-down muslim political-entrepeneurs that are oppressing muslim communities in the same way as the blair govt teamed up/produced with MCB. A smaller mirror image. But we don't mention RESPECT anymore do we?

And if you think that islamists aren't seeking to drive a wedge between w/c people then i don't know what country that you're living in - the one where the grey area doesn't exist i suppose. In fact, the creeping-swp analysis behind your tradition argues that the state is seeking to drive a wedge between diff elements of the class through its response to islamists. So you do recognise it, but rather than striking at one of the roots of it - that is actual islamism - you seek to somehow deal rather with the states responses to it. Cop-out.

Islamists as IRA is an odd approach as well.

 

[19force8]

...and by teaming up with the same top-down muslim political-entrepeneurs that are oppressing muslim communities in the same way as the blair govt teamed up/produced with MCB. A smaller mirror image. But we don't mention RESPECT anymore do we?

And if you think that islamists aren't seeking to drive a wedge between w/c people then i don't know what country that you're living in - the one where the grey area doesn't exist i suppose. In fact, the creeping-swp analysis behind your tradition argues that the state is seeking to drive a wedge between diff elements of the class through its response to islamists. So you do recognise it, but rather than striking at one of the roots of it - that is actual islamism - you seek to somehow deal rather with the states responses to it. Cop-out.

Islamists as IRA is an odd approach as well.

Try replying to what I said, not what you'd have liked me to say.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Try replying to what I said, not what you'd have liked me to say.

Troops out of Syria?

 

[Anudder Oik]

The39thStep

Or is it for supporting the government's Prevent programme and getting people to grass on their family and friends for thought crimes?

Looks like you're defending a hands off strategy where radicalization is concerned, Your use of vocabulary, ie "to grass" shows that you see informing on potential murderers as something to be socially rejected.

Let's see, in 1939 many people were locked up in the UK for "thought crimes", and I'm sure you wouldn't have had a problem with that, they were fascist sympathisers who were considered as potential fifth columnists. Amongst them were leaders of Oswald Mosley's fascist organization and I think there was even a british admiral, someone of the same rank as Nelson.

This week in Spain, A radicalized man was arrested after being "grassed on". He hadn't killed anyone yet but he had downloaded 2 manuals, had links with killers and was recorded by the intelligence services saying he was going to carry out an attack worse than Manchester and against children.

Are you saying that he shouldn't have been arrested?

 

[Pickman's model]

Looks like you're defending a hands off strategy where radicalization is concerned, Your use of vocabulary, ie "to grass" shows that you see informing on potential murderers as something to be socially rejected.

Let's see, in 1939 many people were locked up in the UK for "thought crimes", and I'm sure you wouldn't have had a problem with that, they were fascist sympathisers who were considered as potential fifth columnists. Amongst them were leaders of Oswald Mosley's fascist organization and I think there was even a british admiral, someone of the same rank as Nelson.

This week in Spain, A radicalized man was arrested after being "grassed on". He hadn't killed anyone yet but he had downloaded 2 manuals, had links with killers and was recorded by the intelligence services saying he was going to carry out an attack worse than Manchester and against children.

Are you saying that he shouldn't have been arrested?

You're a potential murderer. Should the police be told to keep an eye on you?

 

[Anudder Oik]

The39thStep

What is a march "against extremism" for?

Is it for working with Muslim communities helping them fight the racism discrimination and abuse they face?

You are too quick to connect racism to an anti-islamic extremism protest, organized in two weeks on facebook, without racism, violence or a route that could intimidate anyone. you are totally out of touch.

The march against extremism was directed against the government because they are doing fuck all about radicalization. There needs to be programmes to offer hope but also some cunts need to be locked up, now. For example, the 400 or so who have returned from being in the Caliphate, directly supporting and being part of a death cult that sells women and girls as slaves, gets children to execute people, burns and drowns prisoners alive, and executes homosexuals by throwing them off of buildings, thse scum need to be rounded up. Don't compare this to the holocaust or internment in Ireland, compare it to the arrest of fascists in 1939 or the british who joined the ss and were afterwards executed for treason, who deserved it.

 

[Anudder Oik]

On some football forums they are saying the FLA was a nail in the coffin of the EDL.

Let's hope that on the next march they organize, which I think may attract double the number, they can maintain the code they have established that will keep the right wing extremists cowed and unable to hijack the event.

Gotta love the BBC and the Guardian for their total media blackout of the protest after running articles on how the working class are denied a voice.

 

[Pickman's model]

You are too quick to connect racism to an anti-islamic extremism protest, organized in two weeks on facebook, without racism, violence or a route that could intimidate anyone. you are totally out of touch.

The march against extremism was directed against the government because they are doing fuck all about radicalization. There needs to be programmes to offer hope but also some cunts need to be locked up, now. For example, the 400 or so who have returned from being in the Caliphate, directly supporting and being part of a death cult that sells women and girls as slaves, gets children to execute people, burns and drowns prisoners alive, and executes homosexuals by throwing them off of buildings, thse scum need to be rounded up. Don't compare this to the holocaust or internment in Ireland, compare it to the arrest of fascists in 1939 or the british who joined the ss and were afterwards executed for treason, who deserved it.

If you're going to compare it to the internment of fascists in 1939 then you suggest they pose a proper existential threat like the nazis and fascists of that era, which is proper tosh. And you should be aware that people who weren't fascists, indeed people who were opposed to fascism, were also interned in the round-up, and in these social media times that might not play so well.

 

[Anudder Oik]

If you're going to compare it to the internment of fascists in 1939 then you suggest they pose a proper existential threat like the nazis and fascists of that era, which is proper tosh. And you should be aware that people who weren't fascists, indeed people who were opposed to fascism, were also interned in the round-up, and in these social media times that might not play so well.

Tosh? Tosh off!!! Of course they pose a fucking threat, where have you been ffs? Try thinking before posting.

I fully support the arrest of all returning from being members of ISIS. They shouldn't be walking amongst us, spreading their influence, none of them. why the soflty softly approach? The government, and I think Theresa May, have so far only arrested one returning murderer. I think that when fascists were interned, the broader population in Britain were quite relieved and I think now, the broader population, including peaceful Muslims, would also feel relieved if these scum are removed from our midst.

Do you recognize that by joining ISIS they have committed a crime against humanity?

 

[Anudder Oik]

then you suggest they pose a proper existential threat like the nazis and fascists of that era, which is proper tosh.

I dare you to say that aloud in Manchester.

 

[Pickman's model]

Tosh? Tosh off!!! Of course they pose a fucking threat, where have you been ffs? Try thinking before posting.

I fully support the arrest of all returning from being members of ISIS. They shouldn't be walking amongst us, spreading their influence, none of them. why the soflty softly approach? The government, and I think Theresa May, have so far only arrested one returning murderer. I think that when fascists were interned, the broader population in Britain were quite relieved and I think now, the broader population, including peaceful Muslims, would also feel relieved if these scum are removed from our midst.

Do you recognize that by joining ISIS they have committed a crime against humanity?

So you think daesh pose a threat on the same level as hitler

 

[Anudder Oik]

What this guy above does is continually and systematically try to distract and derail whenever I, and others, ask what are for him uncomfortable questions. What he needs to know is that this is a debating forum where people's original stance can be swayed in the debate but the debate must be allowed to develop naturally. I think that is a right for everyone who has registered here. So please can we get on with the political debate on the subject and leave out all the superfluous personal bickering adn petty point scoring.

The question of arresting the radicalized "before they act" deserves more mature and thought out debate. It's a subject that obviously brings us to question where the term "radicalization" ends. Maybe it should be debated seriously on another thread?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

From a look at social so far it seems to me that a lot of the FLA support comes from people who think the EDL are shit - too racist, that's explicitly stated, and I get a sense of too up themselves, trying to promote their own media careers. TR is really not popular. There are definitely white nationalist types trying to promote themselves with it, saying how there's a conspiracy to not show it on the MSM because jews - bots are involved, too many identical posts, but that's par for the course on Twitter these days so may not say much.

 

[Red Sky]

From a look at social so far it seems to me that a lot of the FLA support comes from people who think the EDL are shit - too racist, that's explicitly stated, and I get a sense of too up themselves, trying to promote their own media careers. TR is really not popular. There are definitely white nationalist types trying to promote themselves with it, saying how there's a conspiracy to not show it on the MSM because jews - bots are involved, too many identical posts, but that's par for the course on Twitter these days so may not say much.

When the EDL started they were keen to disassociate themselves from toxic brands like the NF and the BNP. Interesting that they are now the benchmark.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

When the EDL started they were keen to disassociate themselves from toxic brands like the NF and the BNP. Interesting that they are now the benchmark.

I think TR's media presence has been a large part of it—I get a feeling that people see him as self-interested, trying to boost his own career. But I was at the EDL march last weekend and the whole thing was pretty pathetic. At least a thousand police around and a few dozen tired old casuals giving the finger. Who would want to ally themselves?

I'm making no judgements about the FLA one here btw, though I am definitely very sceptical of the idea that it just spontaneously arose out of a sense of injustice and something needing to be done. Just the focus seems to bely that.

 

[Pickman's model]

I dare you to say that aloud in Manchester.

Have you ever seen a WW2 bomb damage map of Manchester?

 

[Pickman's model]

When the EDL started they were keen to disassociate themselves from toxic brands like the NF and the BNP. Interesting that they are now the benchmark.

I think then they were testing boundaries, and each other.

 

[Ole]

The39thStep I don't agree.

We oppose fascists because of their role in the class struggle. They provide a means by which the ruling class can destroy working class organisation and resistance in times of extreme crisis. The ways we oppose fascists reflect that role - we drive them out of our unions, we deny them the political space to propagandise by refusing to share a platform with them and wherever possible denying them a platform, we make sure they are opposed whenever they try to march or demonstrate, finally, we make it known that they are fascists and not (just?) the patriots or Christians or whatever cover they seek to use.

The various strands of extreme Islamic fundamentalism are unable (and do not seek) to serve the same function in the UK, so they don't present the same threat to the working class. Also, they organise differently and with different goals. Therefore we need to find different ways to oppose them.

What is a march "against extremism" for?

Is it for working with Muslim communities helping them fight the racism discrimination and abuse they face?

Or is it for supporting the government's Prevent programme and getting people to grass on their family and friends for thought crimes?

More importantly, how will such a march be perceived by communities that have faced years of BNP/EDL/NF/BF thugs being escorted through their towns?

This is why "the left" doesn't organise "anti-jihadist" demonstrations. Just as we didn't organise anti-IRA marches during the troubles. In fact we campaigned for Troops Out and in support of the hunger strikers.

The best way for the non-Muslim left in the UK to oppose jihadist terrorism is to provide an alternate pole of attraction through our unions and our parties, by building the fight against racism and fascism, and by opposing bloody imperialist adventures.

"The left" will be like virulent poison to the working-class as long as fucking gimps like you are around to defend jihadists as anti-imperialists by comparing them to the IRA.

'Anti-fascist' my fucking arse.

 

[Ole]

The39thStep I don't agree.

We oppose fascists because of their role in the class struggle. They provide a means by which the ruling class can destroy working class organisation and resistance in times of extreme crisis. The ways we oppose fascists reflect that role - we drive them out of our unions, we deny them the political space to propagandise by refusing to share a platform with them and wherever possible denying them a platform, we make sure they are opposed whenever they try to march or demonstrate, finally, we make it known that they are fascists and not (just?) the patriots or Christians or whatever cover they seek to use.

The various strands of extreme Islamic fundamentalism are unable (and do not seek) to serve the same function in the UK, so they don't present the same threat to the working class. Also, they organise differently and with different goals. Therefore we need to find different ways to oppose them.

What is a march "against extremism" for?

Is it for working with Muslim communities helping them fight the racism discrimination and abuse they face?

Or is it for supporting the government's Prevent programme and getting people to grass on their family and friends for thought crimes?

More importantly, how will such a march be perceived by communities that have faced years of BNP/EDL/NF/BF thugs being escorted through their towns?

This is why "the left" doesn't organise "anti-jihadist" demonstrations. Just as we didn't organise anti-IRA marches during the troubles. In fact we campaigned for Troops Out and in support of the hunger strikers.

The best way for the non-Muslim left in the UK to oppose jihadist terrorism is to provide an alternate pole of attraction through our unions and our parties, by building the fight against racism and fascism, and by opposing bloody imperialist adventures.

"I think I'll blow this nail bomb over there and kill as many kids as possible" = 'thought-crime'.

You silly fucking twat.

 

[19force8]

You are too quick to connect racism to an anti-islamic extremism protest, organized in two weeks on facebook, without racism, violence or a route that could intimidate anyone. you are totally out of touch.

I wasn't talking about the FLA protest, but a hypothetical "left" protest against "extremism" and how that might work.

As regards the FLA protest, I am out of touch. This is partly due to getting back from holiday in time to chase Britain First around Brum, followed by having to dig out a horribly slow old laptop because my computer decided not to boot when I got home. This is why I haven't discussed them. Although I would challenge your assertion that an "anti-Islamic extremism protest" could be non-racist.

The march against extremism was directed against the government because they are doing fuck all about radicalization. There needs to be programmes to offer hope but also some cunts need to be locked up, now. For example, the 400 or so who have returned from being in the Caliphate, directly supporting and being part of a death cult that sells women and girls as slaves, gets children to execute people, burns and drowns prisoners alive, and executes homosexuals by throwing them off of buildings, thse scum need to be rounded up. Don't compare this to the holocaust or internment in Ireland, compare it to the arrest of fascists in 1939 or the british who joined the ss and were afterwards executed for treason, who deserved it.

A point I made about our hypothetical protest applies here. How do you think this protest was likely to have been viewed by a Muslim audience? You say it was directed at the government, but only in so far as it wanted them to take a harder line. You also seem to suggest it isn't just the 400 ISIS members in the UK who need locking up without due process. How many did you have in mind? 800? 4000? (btw, where does this 400 figure come from?) How is this anything other than Islamophobia?

And this wouldn't be comparable to internment in Ireland because? Because it wouldn't act as an ideological finishing school? Because it wouldn't be a national and international blot on the reputation of "British justice?" Because it wouldn't lead to the radicalisation of the friends, sympathisers and relatives of the detained?

 

[19force8]

"The left" will be like virulent poison to the working-class as long as fucking gimps like you are around to defend jihadists as anti-imperialists by comparing them to the IRA.

'Anti-fascist' my fucking arse.

Where did I defend jihadists?

Where did I call them anti-imperialists?

In fact, where did I compare them to the IRA?

Fuck off you fucking fascist apologist.

 

[Ole]

Where did I defend jihadists?

Where did I call them anti-imperialists?

In fact, where did I compare them to the IRA?

Fuck off you fucking fascist apologist.

In the post I quoted. You fucking gimp.

Here's another beaut from you:

I would challenge your assertion that an "anti-Islamic extremism protest" could be non-racist.

You fucking fraud.

 

[Ole]

This cunt 19force8 thinks secular Muslims aren't also anti-jihadist.

So 'anti-racist' he's racist. What a fucking bell-end.