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Someone has messaged me to take down contact details, does anyone know if this is legit.
 
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krink said:
that BF lot are only any good at hassling liberals.

having said that, i'd have more sympathy for liberal lefties being bullied by fash if liberal lefties stopped grassing us up to the cops and calling us as 'as bad as the fascists'.
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Just what I was thinking whilst watching the video. It's this idea that you can effectively confront the growth of fascism by dressing up like something from CBeebies.

They'll never seem to grasp the concept that if you want to defend the working class against these reactionary ideas, it'll at least help if you show you're a part of it (rather than apart from it).

The incredulity and general shock/horror "look at these THUGS" type comments that the liberals are sharing along with the video is another reflection of how unprepared and out of tune they are with the nature of fascism.

It always reminds me of the AFA Fighting Talk video where the guy talks about going along on an ANL demo and everyone's pointing at the opposition going "Nazis! Nazis!" and he says it's stupid "the Nazis already know that they're Nazis! What I wanted to do was take a placard, jump over the barrier and bash one over the head with it!!"
 
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intersol32 said:
They'll never seem to grasp the concept that if you want to defend the working class against these reactionary ideas, it'll at least help if you show you're a part of it (rather than apart from it).
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On the other hand, if their role as they see it, is to defend minorities against reactionary working class ideas, there is a certain logic in looking and acting as 'alternative' as possible. That their provocations might further alienate ordinary people from the wider cause, rather than be a matter of concern, is probably a matter of pride instead. There was a mention of a recent far-right activity reminding someone of the BNP attack on Welling library.
The key difference being that it led to double figures ending up in hospital. Needless to say that particular campaign came to an abrupt end. Would 'Beyond Ukip' or whatever they call themselves, respond differently? Hardly. So in the end all your left with is a far-right emboldened and a section of the working class even further alienated: anti-anti-fascism.
 
Are breastfeeding Mums not part of the working class then? From my personal knowledge of Dan Glass - he is a bit of a self-aggrandizing wanker but I though the stunt itself was quite legit. How is criticising Farage (City of London, ex-public schoolboy) setting yourself up against 'reactionary working class ideas'?
 
Thunderfist said:
Are breastfeeding Mums not part of the working class then? From my personal knowledge of Dan Glass - he is a bit of a self-aggrandizing wanker but I though the stunt itself was quite legit. How is criticising Farage (City of London, ex-public schoolboy) setting yourself up against 'reactionary working class ideas'?
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It's more about the tactics that were being used to confront Farage. If you're defending just one section of it (e.g. breast feeding mums, people of a different sexual orientation etc) that would be fine. But what you have to bear in mind is that UKIP and outright Fascist outfits represent a threat to the working class in its entirety and the response should be proportional and appropriate to that.

If anything what the last 20-25 years has shown is that the 'carnival' type stunts or gimmicks may be appealing to the "identity politics" of the "protest movement" types, but where the larger swathes of the working class are concerned it quite often leaves them unaffected, indifferent or (even worse) alienated from you.
 
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Stunts and gimmicks have their place - I'm not sure that the working class is quite as dour as you suggest. One of Nigel's primary appeals has been that, like Boris, he comes across as game for a laugh. A conga line, some fancy dress, shock-horror gay people - are these really totally alienating to the working class people you know?

If we need a response to a threat 'to the working class in its entirety' then what should it be and how do we go about organising it?
 
Thunderfist said:
Stunts and gimmicks have their place - I'm not sure that the working class is quite as dour as you suggest. One of Nigel's primary appeals has been that, like Boris, he comes across as game for a laugh. A conga line, some fancy dress, shock-horror gay people - are these really totally alienating to the working class people you know?

If we need a response to a threat 'to the working class in its entirety' then what should it be and how do we go about organising it?
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I agree that stunts have their place perhaps, but as I mentioned in the comments earlier, it helps if you're also directly engaging the working class from within it. Organising in the community is another concept that seems completely anathema to some in the wider left. Years after the warnings about the right gaining ground due to almost complete abandonment by the mainstream parties, many still launch their campaigns on or around the local student campus or similar.

At my workplace there around 200 employees. It's manual work and approx. half that number are agency staff. A few of the lads have shown an interest in voting for Ukip in the next election. The reasons for this seem to be disillusionment with the usual tory vs labour carry-on and a lack of an alternative, rather than being outright racists. Engaging them in discussions about this (and steering them away from Ukip) have been made far easier by the fact that I'm a fellow worker approaching them on the same level. I definitely wouldn't gain any ground in this instance if instead I set up a paper stall in the town complete with megaphone and a few jugglers.

Hopefully you see what I'm getting at here.

To give you another example, we started our community group in an area of Nottingham which previously never had one. It was a case of throwing ourselves in at the deep end - but what became clear is that the local organised left (as we'll call it) had no interest in dealing realistically with the local community. Instead it was as outsiders who were more willing to dictate to them about 'what their problems were' rather than the other way round.
 
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I hear you - but there seems to be an assumption that none of those involved in the stunt would also be representing anti-UKIP views in their workplace.

Organising in the community or workplace is obviously vital but it doesn't stand in opposition to other forms of activism. A media stunt is precisely the kind of thing that gets people talking in the first place.

As for the stunt I thought in the end the fallout was worse for UKIP. If 'one for the road' Nigel really was the rakish goodtimer he pretends he would have laughed the whole thing off - maybe joined in the Conga. Instead he comes across as mean-spirited. Britain First's intervention has actually re-asserted the link between far-right politics and boot-boy tactics, one of the key differences between UKIP and the BNP was that Nick Griffin never managed to sever that link and that put a lot of people off.
 
Thunderfist said:
Britain First's intervention has actually re-asserted the link between far-right politics and boot-boy tactics
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On the other hand it could be presented as another instance where the left have been unable (or unwilling?) to defend themselves against Fascist assaults. Adopting an approach that the ANL used in the 90's which was to present themselves as victims, hoping that this would garner sympathy amongst possible supporters. Although why they thought reports of their meetings getting turned over and people being hospitalised would make people feel safe enough to attend them was beyond me personally.

As again mentioned above in previous comments, this stance also stretched to completely discounting any kind of physical resistance to Fascist organising by strangely claiming that it made people "as bad as the Nazis". Although in this left wing dreamscape it was never understood by them that the only reason the ANL/SWP could march or hold meetings in some of these areas was because the Fascists had been physically beaten off the streets in the first place.
 
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I think you're using this to re-fight old arguments - who is suggesting that anyone is 'as bad as the nazis' now. Who apart from Hope Not Hate, perhaps is trying to discourage physical resistance?

Much as I hate to have to admit it - the 90s was a long time ago.
 
Thunderfist said:
I hear you - but there seems to be an assumption that none of those involved in the stunt would also be representing anti-UKIP views in their workplace.

Organising in the community or workplace is obviously vital but it doesn't stand in opposition to other forms of activism. A media stunt is precisely the kind of thing that gets people talking in the first place.

As for the stunt I thought in the end the fallout was worse for UKIP. If 'one for the road' Nigel really was the rakish goodtimer he pretends he would have laughed the whole thing off - maybe joined in the Conga. Instead he comes across as mean-spirited. Britain First's intervention has actually re-asserted the link between far-right politics and boot-boy tactics, one of the key differences between UKIP and the BNP was that Nick Griffin never managed to sever that link and that put a lot of people off.
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Unfortunately quite a few people I know think that the stunt reinforced their view of the left as telling people that they can't say what they want, that Farage and his family time is a no go area and that the left look like a bunch of middle class hippies.
 
This is going to the problem with any kind of anti-UKIP stuff. Our anti-fascist group has been reluctant to get drawn into anti-UKIP street mobilisation for this reason - you're going to come across as a bunch of censors. On the other hand - the alternative is what? It's a long time since some people decided to focus on grass-roots community activism at the expense of 'parachuting adventurism', over twenty years in fact - where is the honest appraisal of the results of that process? Obviously if it had worked entirely as intended we wouldn't be looking at a large scale right wing street movement now.
 

Thunderfist said:
As for the stunt I thought in the end the fallout was worse for UKIP. If 'one for the road' Nigel really was the rakish goodtimer he pretends he would have laughed the whole thing off - maybe joined in the Conga. Instead he comes across as mean-spirited. Britain First's intervention has actually re-asserted the link between far-right politics and boot-boy tactics, one of the key differences between UKIP and the BNP was that Nick Griffin never managed to sever that link and that put a lot of people off.
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Yeah, and after joining in the Conga, in order to avoid appearing "mean spirited", maybe he could have danced on the roof of his car as someone was already bouncing on the bonnet?

Things went from bad to worse when a supercilious and uber smug Mr Glass appeared on Radio Five Live the following day. He began by making the identical argument about Farage's supposed sense of humour failure, but then in response to some mild questioning of the the tactic by the interviewer, invoked the Holocaust by way of justification.

Even when the interviewer expressed astonishment at the parallel being drawn he pressed on. No barometer on public opinion I grant you, but personally, I felt like punching him. How's that for 'putting people off'?
 
intersol32 said:
On the other hand it could be presented as another instance where the left have been unable (or unwilling?) to defend themselves against Fascist assaults. Adopting an approach that the ANL used in the 90's which was to present themselves as victims, hoping that this would garner sympathy amongst possible supporters. Although why they thought reports of their meetings getting turned over and people being hospitalised would make people feel safe enough to attend them was beyond me personally.

As again mentioned above in previous comments, this stance also stretched to completely discounting any kind of physical resistance to Fascist organising by strangely claiming that it made people "as bad as the Nazis". Although in this left wing dreamscape it was never understood by them that the only reason the ANL/SWP could march or hold meetings in some of these areas was because the Fascists had been physically beaten off the streets in the first place.
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the anl only resurrected after a series of fascist attacks on swp paper sales, most of which the swp leadership kept from the membership. if memory serves, searchlight published a very hostile editorial about the return of the anl, saying that no need to establish a competitor to afa or words to that effect.
 
Thunderfist said:
This is going to the problem with any kind of anti-UKIP stuff. Our anti-fascist group has been reluctant to get drawn into anti-UKIP street mobilisation for this reason - you're going to come across as a bunch of censors. On the other hand - the alternative is what? It's a long time since some people decided to focus on grass-roots community activism at the expense of 'parachuting adventurism', over twenty years in fact - where is the honest appraisal of the results of that process? Obviously if it had worked entirely as intended we wouldn't be looking at a large scale right wing street movement now.
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There isn't a large scale right wing street movement what there is is a large scale populist right wing polical movement and mood to which 'street' anti fascism no answer or a political alternative.
 
A movement that can put 1000s on the streets is to my mind 'large scale'. It's obviously a symptom of a larger scale populist political movement, because all street mobilisations, left or right, consist only of a percentage of those with a given opinion.

As I've said before street mobilisation can only be reactive - it cannot supply a political alternative but it is a vital part of anti-fascism. Are you seriously suggesting that when neo-nazis conduct two 'white pride' events in a fortnight (in Manchester and Newcastle) that we should just let them get on with it?

Where is your political alternative though?
 
Pickman's model said:
the anl only resurrected after a series of fascist attacks on swp paper sales, most of which the swp leadership kept from the membership. if memory serves, searchlight published a very hostile editorial about the return of the anl, saying that no need to establish a competitor to afa or words to that effect.
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I'd definitely agree. Although I recall some of these attacks were highlighted in the manner I spoke of. Their paper sale in Mansfield being turned over by local BNP activists (along with the subsequent court case) and also a meeting in Notts City Centre where their members were assaulted - the latter of which subsequently prompted the organisers to approach us "to help keep an eye on the next meeting" in case the opposition turned up again :confused:

Thunderfist said:
It's a long time since some people decided to focus on grass-roots community activism at the expense of 'parachuting adventurism', over twenty years in fact - where is the honest appraisal of the results of that process? Obviously if it had worked entirely as intended we wouldn't be looking at a large scale right wing street movement now.
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The lessons learned from community activism are worth taking note of indeed. My own personal experience is that it's "the point of the spear" so to speak. It's almost the only time you'll get to engage directly with the working class, other than in the workplace. The problem comes with finding the considerable resources to build the kind of alternative that will provide people with an effective voice. In this respect the tactics are not (and never have been) the stumbling block, it unfortunately comes down to logistics and funding.

Again, purely based on my own experiences, AFA was also a victim of its own success. It cleared a space for a radical political alternative by physically removing the fascists from the streets. But the necessity for us stepping into that role was lost on some who maintained that the only necessity was to carry on a covert war against the Fascists (seemingly for its own sake). They just didn't see how community work complimented the wider picture. The most telling thing for me was sitting down with the local AFA group when these ideas were being floated. I commented that engaging the community may at some point mean standing a candidate in elections, if that's what the community required us to do. One of them piped up "fuck that!" to which I said "Well, what do you want then?" to which he said to murmers of agreement from his mates "I want an Anarchist society!". So in reply I asked "then how do you propose to get there?" which elicited a shrugging of the shoulders and an awkward silence.

That's the long term issue. In the meantime I agree that it's also important to not allow the extreme right to dominate the streets again nor allow the left to become targets for an easy victory.
 
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Thunderfist said:
A movement that can put 1000s on the streets is to my mind 'large scale'. It's obviously a symptom of a larger scale populist political movement, because all street mobilisations, left or right, consist only of a percentage of those with a given opinion.

As I've said before street mobilisation can only be reactive - it cannot supply a political alternative but it is a vital part of anti-fascism. Are you seriously suggesting that when neo-nazis conduct two 'white pride' events in a fortnight (in Manchester and Newcastle) that we should just let them get on with it?

Where is your political alternative though?
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I have nothing against mobilising against the Far Right , actually The British First video set me off thinking these boys should be taken down a peg or two , but if that's all on offer then fine spend the weekend trying to target the two irrelevant White Pride 'demos' which attracted about 150 over the two events.
The absence of a political alternative , existing now,happening now, does make it difficult to win people over. It would be great to have one but we don't.
 
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