Thunderfist
Well-Known Member
If he hasn't got anything constructive to offer - then yes he probably is wasting his time.
EDL watch
- Thread starter Das Uberdog
- Start date
Are you here trolling or something? You seem to be settling in quite comfortably as a new comer with <100 posts.
Thunderfist
Well-Known Member
Aaah put me in my place there. How many posts should I make before offering an opinion?
Who said you can't 'offer' an opinion?
Thunderfist
Well-Known Member
The suggestion that I'm trolling - because I have less than 100 posts. This is completely de-railing the point of this anyway. This could be a useful discussion - how we mobilise against the far-right is an important issue.
Cool. The floor is yours. What are your ideas?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Butchers and others on here have made loads of constructive contributions over the years on a pro working class perspective on anti fascism
Thunderfist
Well-Known Member
The trouble is that as a newcomer I've only encountered him as a sneery, negative presence. As for a "pro-working class perspective" why is he accusing me of being obsessed with class?
Thunderfist
Well-Known Member
That the development of a far-right street presence in the UK in the last six years is worrying. It is part of a Europe-wide phenomenon, the rise in ethno-nationalist ideas. That it not only represents the failure of left politics in certain spheres but will also impact directly on the ability of the left to organise.
Anti-fascism is fire-fighting, it can only be reactive, it cannot replace other forms of struggle but it has to defend them.
That if we put our minds (and bodies) to it we could put the far-right back in the box.
Why does anti fascism have to be reactive? Sure a community response to fascist activity in their area is important but those links have to be forged and work needs to be done in those communities. Having a day out with balaclavas on doesn't achieve anything much and neither would having a punch up presently.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
start reading his posts properly, over and over if you have too
not saying you're thick btw
TomSorrent
Malign and unaligned
I would say it has to be reactive in the sense that we're all against fascism rather than specifically pro- anything, hence why broad front groups (rebuplicans/irish patriots, commies, anarchos in the same room) can function. Also reactive in the sense that we are definitely on the back foot at the moment.
It's a bit of paradox really. If a front is too broad/inclusive like UAF having Tory signatures then by definition it looses the radicalism.
'work done in communities' is a little vague buddy. What do you mean by this? I would say that the more community orientated anti fash organisations (UAF/HnH) need to do a lot of work in white working class communities. Although this is probably a bad idea of mine 'cus they have a tendency to patronise the fuck out of honest but misguided concerns people have.
There's no sympathy for the orthodox left and very little breathing room for genuine left wing organisations to grow from working class communities, so i think we need to continue with oppositional anti fascism to try and make space for political progressivism.
'punch ups' aren't always productive although they are necessary in self-defence of a march for example or just for principled opposition - and they do have an effect. For all of my criticism of an antifa's 'unorthodox' fighting style, Brighton has clearly given MfE the boot. Specifically planned direct actions have to be carried out with military precision. Pick your targets, minimise risk:maximise impact.
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"Work done in communities" means initiatives that reach out to people such as the youth to prevent them being attracted to the far right in the first place, so you don't end up being 'reactive' to them at a later point in time. This is also valid anti fascist work. Some might argue its more important than shouting "Nazi scum, off our streets" which appears to achieve nothing in particular.
TomSorrent
Malign and unaligned
Yeah I agree to an extent. Even in community work though we need to be reactive to the ways it's been led astray. Asian only youth projects shouldn't be getting council funding for example when the working class as a whole (regardless of ethnicities) have fuck all youth services. It just stirs up divisions which are actually artificial. Same problem with faith schools - they should be getting no money from the government whatsoever. It's one of the areas where the IWCA is bang on - even though it's been dismissed as 'reactionary' in the right wing sense by the orthodox/trot left.
Community work can remove potential recruits but the hardcore of fascist groups are immune to it. Scum attracts scum and people who are hopelessly racist will always be attracted to these groups no matter how much work we do with youngsters.
Even after getting into grammar school (history classes = "communism only works in theory") I still turned out a lefty...
'Nazi scum off our streets' is a pet hate of mine... won't even go into the problems with that slogan or just shouting slogans in general.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
Good community work also builds up associations and relationships with people who live in an area, or just profile.
This makes a crucial difference if there is fascist activity (like a march or demo) - it's the difference between anti-fascists looking like they have parachuted in or are actually people from the local area, who know and care about what goes on there.
This makes a crucial difference if there is fascist activity (like a march or demo) - it's the difference between anti-fascists looking like they have parachuted in or are actually people from the local area, who know and care about what goes on there.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Spot on.
TomSorrent
Malign and unaligned
It's a criticism we can put forward to people about the EDL as well... people turning up with EDL south wales and gloucestershire division hoodies know fuck all about my community...
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
Yes it is, but that criticism is more effective as part of an organised community response. Otherwise you end up with the thorny issue of which side resonates better with people - very difficult in Rochdale where local feeling was outrage about grooming and the EDL were very visibly on the streets in opposition to it.
Mind you there was that great video of a person who will remain nameless shouting at an EDL march through/near Whitechapel telling them all to fuck off back the provinces - so horses for courses.
gamerunknown
Well-Known Member
TomSorrent said:
Got this in comprehensive history too you know - presentation of the IWW "Pyramid of the Capitalist System" diagram with note "isn't this quaint" and then a unidimensional political spectrum which is " a circle - the far left and the far right are not distinguishable from each other" (this persists into University, with "liberalism" and "Conservatism" being the sole descriptors of a political spectrum which has at least two axes). Pretty much none of my contemporaries regarded themselves as working class, despite some of the more honest teachers saying the majority of us would be wage labourers when we finished education.
TomSorrent
Malign and unaligned
ah yeah I remember that fucker. It was called the "communism-fascism horseshoe" at my school and the teacher used to say that an upside down horseshoe is always bad luck...
I'm at uni atm and experiencing much the same. To me everyone's economics are essentially neoliberal and people only really have an opinion on social issues. The labour club don't even mention class symbolically it's all socially liberal causes like 'cisgender privilege awareness' and 'how to be an ally'- valid and interesting things but just an element of the wider struggle, not least because *apparently* as a cisgender person I can never have empathy with a transperson...
Luckily my politics were made outside of history classes during the series of utterly shite jobs I had to do before I went to uni. Not exactly the hay day of industrial organising, but being paid minimum wage to do the work of two people whilst I made thousands for the company and my boss took home 40k a year for sitting on his arse was enough for me to realise what goes on
The scourge of identity politics. It boils my piss that someone apparently has 'privilege' for being a white heterosexual male regardless of whether he tosses burgers on minimum wage or not and is being denounced from the comfort of university halls.
I can see what led to this though and it's a failure of the left in general to not get these people involved in class politics and it probably is white males to blame.
I can see what led to this though and it's a failure of the left in general to not get these people involved in class politics and it probably is white males to blame.
TomSorrent
Malign and unaligned
I totally agree. I'm on my uni's S.U. as an equalities officer and I've been called a racist, a homophobe, you name it, just for pointing out a) the economic struggle is the main thing facing students and society in general, b) the economic struggle brings people together rather than playing up artificial differences, and c) a gay black kid who goes to Eton has infinitely more life chances than a working class white kid
Funny really, a lot of my critics quietened down considerably when I pointed out my ethnic background! (it Isn't obvious)
If people do want to do physical force anti fascism against the likes of the EDL it isn't difficult. Plant an insider or simply watch where they go on the piss after the event and then simply pick them off. This doesn't seem to have happened though so the black balaclava shit is self indulgent theatre as far as I can tell.
Thunderfist
Well-Known Member
I'm never sure why community activism and physical anti-fascism are consistently presented as opposites. Obviously a lot of people involved in AFN are involved in other struggles - there's a big overlap with SolFed for example. If I go on a workplace picket with SolFed am I being an anti-fascist? In a sense perhaps but that's not my primary focus at the time.
Community politics has the problem of being very nebulous - what is my community exactly, my city, my estate, my street? There are some good examples of where people have dug their heels in and achieved community mobilisation but they're few and far between - do we let the fash stomp all over the other places because they haven't had lefty community organisers beavering away for the last twenty years?
Community politics has the problem of being very nebulous - what is my community exactly, my city, my estate, my street? There are some good examples of where people have dug their heels in and achieved community mobilisation but they're few and far between - do we let the fash stomp all over the other places because they haven't had lefty community organisers beavering away for the last twenty years?
Thunderfist
Well-Known Member
Sorry mate but this is laughable. "simply pick them off" - brilliant, I wish I'd thought of that.
I bet you would. You're about as close to physical force antifascism as doctors are to finding a cure for cancer, despite your posturing.
Thunderfist
Well-Known Member
What posturing?
Fair enough. I called wrong there maybe.
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