EDL watch
- Thread starter Das Uberdog
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
time and a place for black block, other times - as you say - best to blend in.
TomSorrent
Malign and unaligned
Just briefly I'm honest that I'm a peripheral character on the scene, been on a few actions in the south west and north west (>10) most of which weren't AFN callouts. My judgements were coming from being a relative outsider to AFN looking in on it as a potential thing to get involved with. I can see where i've mixed up the AFN with generic antifa and I've let a lot of misconceptions about AFN go because of this...
My original post was what the AFN looks like from the outside to me and people like like me.
I'd like to have a chat with anyone active in the AFN if they want to message me privately. Still keen to get involved although there's no AFN group in my area.
Will keep my original post up + re-post for Mal32 on the new for the purpose of debate and that.
Limerick Red
Мы вас похороним!
Regardless some very valid observations / criticisms of the state of antifacsism at the moment!
Thunderfist
Well-Known Member
It wouldn't be that a perfectly good chance to denounce the world as a bunch of middle class wankers has degenerated into a reasonable and potentially useful conversation has made you take your ball home would it butchers?
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
few hundred EDL in manchester, about equal or a bit more for antfascists. SEA lot turned back from rotherham by SY plod as well as a few other vehicles.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Bit of a strange comment when butchers and others have made reasonable and potentially useful contributions to which way forward for anti fascists especially at the height of the BNPs threat.
TomSorrent
Malign and unaligned
The only bit i want to reply to in more detail is the bit about the antifa who bottled it at MfE. I'm not a fantasist wishing every action was the battle of waterloo and I'm definitely not the kind of nut who'd take anyone one whatever the circumstances. I wasn't even at MfE last year. Perhaps i was a little harsh on the activist i pointed out and name calling is out of order so I apologise for that. But we've all got to be honest about our willingness and ability to take people on physically and that activist clearly wasn't willing. They put themselves in danger out of naivety rather than bravery, so I don't think it's right to applaud them just for being there. In my opinion they contradicted our M.O. and damaged our cause by being there. Fighting is a nasty business - the idea is to smash or to intimidate the opposition into having second thoughts. All that activist did by being in the thick of it when they clearly weren't up for it was provide an easy, visible and documentable little victory for the fash - gave them an ego boost rather than the slapping down and humiliation needed. Pride and 'standing your ground' in the green street sense is clearly a load of bollocks at the end of the day, but it's how the fash idealise themselves and we've got to take that away from them.
Re. CCTV and more clued up policing, the combination of smart phones and youtube make this situation even harder to work around. We can keep attempting to counteract this by masking up, using black bloc, etc. or we can circumvent it by working clandestine as well. Street work shouldn't just mean opposing protests or opponents on the way to or from protests.
TomSorrent
Malign and unaligned
gave them an ego boost rather than the slapping down and humiliation needed.
Obviously in the larger scheme of things this doesn't matter because Brighton has given the MfE the boot, I'm just explaining where I was coming from
Obviously in the larger scheme of things this doesn't matter because Brighton has given the MfE the boot, I'm just explaining where I was coming from
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
I think your original comment was OK, certainly a good point to start a discussion. I finally watched the "angry white and proud" documentary about some EDL hangers on the other night and there was a similar scene in that of some black clad skinny guys getting floored outside a pub in London on the same day as some anti-racist conference.
I'd also like to add that I am pretty shit at fighting myself but went along to the Hyde Park/Blood and Honour confrontation whenever that was (89?). Mainly because I was pissed off with Nazis organising near my college. It was pretty scary, but I thought I was up for it. I realised the error of my ways when I froze up completely when two boneheads came running towards me. Luckily they were taken out by some heroic types and I quickly realised that I was essentially there to make up the numbers - and that staying out of the way was the safest option for me and for the more forthright people who were doing the necessary.
It became clear to me that I didn't really have the skills necessary for the situation. Perhaps I could have developed them, but I certainly didn't want to be one of those people who talks the talk but then flees on the heels and lets people down.
TomSorrent
Malign and unaligned
I remember the first 'real' fight I ever had. I was 14/15 minding my own on my paper round and these 2 older lads drove straight at me on a moped. I was on my pedal bike and shitting it to be honest but something snapped and I thought I'm not moving for these bullies. They circled round and a game of chicken ensued. The next thing I know I'm sideways in a bush taking a shoeing. At this point I'm really freaking out and just begging them to stop. One of the lads backs off and pulls his mate off me who is just cursing and cursing at me. Anyway I get to my feet and just think fuck this again and I started trying to give some verbal back ("you think you're so hard..." etc.) but theres so much blood in my mouth I just can't get my words out. The driver lurches towards me and I just gob all of the blood building up right in his face before legging it - leaving my bike, my bag and a tooth behind.
Anyway I get home and when the initial sympathy for me/anger at the kids wears off my dad's response is to show me how to make a millwall brick and offer to pay for martial arts classes. My older did the round for a week or two (while claiming that he and his mates were gonna get the bastards and all that) before i was confident enough to start doing it again. Anyway these lads were still about and still gave me a bit a verbal when I saw them. I knew I could never beat two of them physically but they were really starting to get to me, so when the opportunity arose I slammed a paper brick right through the front light of this parked up moped before legging it.
Looking back I learnt a lot from the whole experience:
Bullies (and fascists alike) should always be stood up to, BUT:
Freezing up is a lot more common than the typical 'fight or flight' response
Pick your fights unless there really isn't an option
Being tooled up is a great equaliser
Attacking property is a tactic
Taking up a martial art is a good idea - even for the detecting/avoiding trouble when it's not necessary ethos.
Thunderfist
Well-Known Member
I think you are being harsh on the 'gimp'. As I said before you can't make a judgment on three minutes of footage. So they put their hands up - in some circumstances this can be exactly the right thing to do - some self defence courses even teach it as 'the fence'. They got knocked down and just like the song says - they got back up again. They were there - you were not. Fair play I say.
" In my opinion they contradicted our M.O. and damaged our cause by being there. Fighting is a nasty business - the idea is to smash or to intimidate the opposition into having second thoughts." - nice idea, but it doesn't always pan out that way. What is our M.O by the way?
The squaddist stuff you are talking about - well sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. AFA were a brilliantly successful organisation - in a specific time and place. Most of their work was done against a far-right that was organising in a very traditional way - paper sales, doorknocking, meetings in pubs etc. That gave an opportunity for a well organised group to turn up, outnumber the fash three to one, hurt them and then leave.
What you're talking about now are groups that organise online and can muster hundreds to take over a town centre without the need to have public meetings. These groups are not particularly vulnerable to squaddist tactics. So what if twenty of your mates leap out of a pub and twat half a dozen EDL - how is that going to impact on their future political development? Mass opposition with a physical component and a refusal to organise with the authorities has been the AFN remedy so far - and when it's worked, it's worked well. AFN ers have also travelled to steward (not officially) other more mainstream demos in towns where the fash are likely to outnumber the fluffy counter-demo - so as to be able to defend it when necessary.
Think about the "Battle of Waterloo" - the jewel in AFA's crown. I didn't go but mates of mine did and they were very much as Fozzie Bear says - "there to make up the numbers". That was because in an effort to stop 500 skinheads from attending a gig AFA had to call on everyone who could make it. 500 is actually a pretty average demo size for the EDL - so we're only trying to do the same thing.
" In my opinion they contradicted our M.O. and damaged our cause by being there. Fighting is a nasty business - the idea is to smash or to intimidate the opposition into having second thoughts." - nice idea, but it doesn't always pan out that way. What is our M.O by the way?
The squaddist stuff you are talking about - well sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. AFA were a brilliantly successful organisation - in a specific time and place. Most of their work was done against a far-right that was organising in a very traditional way - paper sales, doorknocking, meetings in pubs etc. That gave an opportunity for a well organised group to turn up, outnumber the fash three to one, hurt them and then leave.
What you're talking about now are groups that organise online and can muster hundreds to take over a town centre without the need to have public meetings. These groups are not particularly vulnerable to squaddist tactics. So what if twenty of your mates leap out of a pub and twat half a dozen EDL - how is that going to impact on their future political development? Mass opposition with a physical component and a refusal to organise with the authorities has been the AFN remedy so far - and when it's worked, it's worked well. AFN ers have also travelled to steward (not officially) other more mainstream demos in towns where the fash are likely to outnumber the fluffy counter-demo - so as to be able to defend it when necessary.
Think about the "Battle of Waterloo" - the jewel in AFA's crown. I didn't go but mates of mine did and they were very much as Fozzie Bear says - "there to make up the numbers". That was because in an effort to stop 500 skinheads from attending a gig AFA had to call on everyone who could make it. 500 is actually a pretty average demo size for the EDL - so we're only trying to do the same thing.
TomSorrent
Malign and unaligned
I've already apologised for the name calling. Totally out of order. I hold my hands up.
Talking of holding hands up, you're right - but there's a difference between a guard and a don't hurt me. I made a judgement on 3 mins of video footage because it's all I see of actions I'm not on and it's all that potential recruits see whatsoever. The whole video is legitimising propaganda for the fash - 'violent commies attacked us brave patriots for loving our country but they're not so brave on their own and we fought them off'.
The M.O. is ideologically and (where necessary) physically confronting fascism, which we probably all agree on - ex-AFA, AFN, 'antifa', whatever.
Re. Squadism: Far right groups still have leaders and visible characters who do a lot of leg work organising PAs, speakers, police liaison, stewarding, transport. We all know who the big twat/head steward with 'EDL' on the back of his head is for example. If they're not there then the organisation crumbles. With other groups, aside from their sensationalised Facebook presence, Britain First in particular do the traditional leafleting malarky (and a bit of poppy scamming on the side). When they mobilised 2-3 activists in a lot of places to 'protect' poppy sellers it turned a lot of heads their way in my community.
Mass opposition is patchy. Newcastle recently was brilliant for anti-fascism as a whole (N.E. AFN mobilised a mass of about 25/2000 marchers...) but there was no mass opposition to the far right bonanza in Rotherham, which is where right wing politics are currently centred and where the white working class happen to be really pissed off and most susceptible to fascist influence. If you want to talk about wider political aims rather than just generic opposition AFN should probably start here. "How is that going to impact on their future political development?" - Time will tell but it won't be pretty.
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TomSorrent
Malign and unaligned
Re. far right organisation online:
It's really interesting. The fash have been targeted online in ways that resemble mass opposition, such as explicit counter sites or piss taking pages (I'm thinking of 'Britain Furst' rather than OTAN here), and ways that resemble "squadism', hacking FB pages, events and external websites to make online organising precarious BUT neither tactic seems to have any relationship with the support the far right receive online or their ability to pull numbers in real life.
I'm no Luddite (I work part time in IT...), but it indicates that the internet isn't as big of a factor as is often assumed.
On a side note I recommend all anti-fascists clue up on digital security. Use TOR, a VPN and change hard disks (destroying the old ones) regularly. This isn't tinfoil hat stuff, it's the digital equivalent of masking up on a demo.
It's really interesting. The fash have been targeted online in ways that resemble mass opposition, such as explicit counter sites or piss taking pages (I'm thinking of 'Britain Furst' rather than OTAN here), and ways that resemble "squadism', hacking FB pages, events and external websites to make online organising precarious BUT neither tactic seems to have any relationship with the support the far right receive online or their ability to pull numbers in real life.
I'm no Luddite (I work part time in IT...), but it indicates that the internet isn't as big of a factor as is often assumed.
On a side note I recommend all anti-fascists clue up on digital security. Use TOR, a VPN and change hard disks (destroying the old ones) regularly. This isn't tinfoil hat stuff, it's the digital equivalent of masking up on a demo.
cantsin
Well-Known Member
wld be interested to see a post from Butchers where he "denounce(s) the world as a bunch of middle class wankers" , literally or other wise, maybe I missed them ?
Attacking them for their supposed appalling literacy is frowned upon on here, hopefully for obvious reasons.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
Then people who for whatever reason didn't get the educational support they needed at school or can't access it in adulthood, who can't afford to visit the dentist, who work particular kinds of jobs or can't find a job at all, or dress in a particular way because it's quite fucking smart actually are thinking about finding answers to the problems they face, political answers. Then they see that shit and think the 'left' is for 'middle class wankers,' mocking them, their families, their friends, their homes, their class experience and not taking any interest in the serious problems they face. People then won't touch anything it organises around with a barge-pole, lost, gone... I don't and I dress like a cunt and take good care of my teeth (coffee and cigarettes aside). Meanwhile the fascists...
TomSorrent
Malign and unaligned
I'm dyslexic. I wasn't endorsing those pages at all.
TomSorrent
Malign and unaligned
pointed out britain furst above Otan not because it's less snobbish but because it has a following of over 100k whereas OTAN managed about 100.
Yeah I know you weren't hence you not having a mob camping on your lawn, hypothetically speaking. They betray an anti working class position. They're the anti left masquerading as being it.
TomSorrent
Malign and unaligned
for all my criticisms of the nature of anti-fascism today i realise that it's essentially reactive. Fascism and anti-fascism only exists because the left has failed my class in the first place
TomSorrent
Malign and unaligned
[QUOTE. They're the anti left masquerading as being it.[/QUOTE]
That applies to just about every left wing organisation i can think of. Apart from Class War I suppose.
Unfortunately if my communities anything to go by working class people don't by into all the imagery of destruction ("we're not in the least afraid of rubble" is a favourite of CW), we want to be seen to fight for dignity not chaos. Kinda relates to the stereotype of an anarchist, but CW seem to live up to it in how they present themselves. Still they've got my vote. Hate the rich and the cash more than I hate the problems with left.
That applies to just about every left wing organisation i can think of. Apart from Class War I suppose.
Unfortunately if my communities anything to go by working class people don't by into all the imagery of destruction ("we're not in the least afraid of rubble" is a favourite of CW), we want to be seen to fight for dignity not chaos. Kinda relates to the stereotype of an anarchist, but CW seem to live up to it in how they present themselves. Still they've got my vote. Hate the rich and the cash more than I hate the problems with left.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Why you always on about class? Why is it so important to you? So central?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Me too. That's exactly the sort of crude reduction of what i have ever said on here and criticisms of what the proper official anti-fascists (ownership currently in brighton apparently) that have made this thread a joke.
Do you like fascism? Are you an anti-fascist? Do you want to join our secret anti-fascist gang? We hate fascists. Here's some vids of them being nasty.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This is exactly why i didn't think it would be worth the candle btw
Thunderfist
Well-Known Member
It was the glee with which you pounced on TomSorrent's anti-AFN post and announced that you'd start another thread straight away because it was so important. The primary characterisation of AFN in that post was "middle class anarcho-fantasist crusties". Tom seems to have reconsidered - and then you disappeared and no thread was forthcoming (well one was but it wasn't good enough for you).
Then you write something completely bizarre like this "Do you like fascism? Are you an anti-fascist? Do you want to join our secret anti-fascist gang? We hate fascists. Here's some vids of them being nasty." What the fuck is that supposed to mean? - it's just an inept piece of straw man building. What is a 'proper official anti fascist' btw?
What are the answers then Butchers? Enlighten us please.
Then you write something completely bizarre like this "Do you like fascism? Are you an anti-fascist? Do you want to join our secret anti-fascist gang? We hate fascists. Here's some vids of them being nasty." What the fuck is that supposed to mean? - it's just an inept piece of straw man building. What is a 'proper official anti fascist' btw?
What are the answers then Butchers? Enlighten us please.
Thunderfist
Well-Known Member
You should get organising....
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