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I was talking about last year in the wake of the publicity surrounding the grooming scandal - about a 1000 fash of varying stripes and no opposition. Also Oldham three (?) weeks ago - North West Infidels were virtually unopposed. I might be wrong but I can't see any public call-outs to confron the EDL in Manchester this Saturday or the South East Alliance in Rotherham on the same day.
 
Mixed feelings about this - from soundings taken Brighton was going to get ready for them. Now they've swerved that and will be heading to towns where they are more likely to have successful demos. Anti-fascism is in a bit of a piss-poor state right now - the UAF has virtually folded and groups like the AFN aren't filling that vacuum. Online mockers like SLATEDL give people the impression that the EDL have collapsed when they haven't and often make us look like a bunch of snobs into the bargain.

There are some big issues with AFN which are stopping it from doing what it set out too.

1) It's got no basis in the working class (even predomantily middle class organisations like UAF at least had support from blue collar unions like the RMT) and it is dominated by students. From a few experiences on demos and the 'antifa' types I know, AFN activists tend to be middle class anarcho-fantasist crusties who have no connection to working class concerns or aims. And sadly this association puts people who don't fit that label off joining - only putting on punk gigs as fundraisers doesn't help! I'm into a bit of punk myself but the sound and attitude of today is house / garage / DnB and the scene around this is massively diverse. Bar maybe 'rave against racism' which seems to attract old skool ravers (i.e. those around in the nineties...) this new current of British subculture with the same inherently anti-authoritarian nature of punk is being ignored when it has the opportunity to draw so many youngsters into our ranks.

2) Another issue is the constant black block tactics. AFN has taken what should be an employable tactic - masking up and wearing black - and turned it into a fashion statement! The arrests after the fight outside that bar at March for England show that black bloc doesn't even make you that anonymous, and it clearly doesn't make you inconspicuous to the plod or the filth... How can you expect to get close enough to do some serious damage or even snatch a banner or wreck a PA when you can be spotted a mile off? It's ineffective and dogmatic and again its part of that whole anarcho-crusty culture which is just the opposite of working class sensibility and style. Sounds bitchy but it honestly puts regular lads who dress like casuals or whatever off.

3) AFN isn't just isn't that good on the pavement. This reflects the calibre of activists that are drawn into its orbit. They are either incapable or unwilling of actually taking on the fash physically when it comes down to it. There's a video (titled something like 'march for england antifascists streetfight brighton') of an antifa with this giant backpack on and their hands up during the fight outside that pub in Brighton at MFE as if they're begging 'don't hurt me!' why on earth was this gimp on the frontline? sure enough they are thrown to the floor in the video and scuttle off. It's embarrassing. And that antifa was very lucky not to be seriously hurt.

4) AFN has fallen into the trap of banner waving counter-demos all dressed nicely in black bloc which do nothing, whilst the fash are unopposed physically.

5) Ideologically AFN seems committed to intersectionality to a point which marginalises a class narrative (i.e. fascism, nationalism, etc. is inherently anti-working class) which is exactly what is needed to start drawing the white working class - who the far right target and mostly consist off - back into the orbit of the left more generally. I stopped going on AFN callouts after one 'antifa' called me out for calling an NWI'er a cunt because it was sexist! I'd be happy to debate words and sexism over a pint or something, but not when you are about to go toe to toe with someone who wants to cave your head in. The dogmatic commitment to intersectionality and horizontal organising etc. translates into being ineffective on the street. Group dynamics are a funny thing and without an organiser calling the shots and directing a group on the streets the group just runs around and more often then not runs away. And If you need to use a gendered swearword to prepare yourself to get involved then so be it.
 
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There are some big issues with AFN which are stopping it from doing what it set out too.

1) It's got no basis in the working class (even predomantily middle class organisations like UAF at least had support from blue collar unions like the RMT) and it is dominated by students. From a few experiences on demos and the 'antifa' types I know, AFN activists tend to be middle class anarcho-fantasist crusties who have no connection to working class concerns or aims. And sadly this association puts people who don't fit that label off joining - only putting on punk gigs as fundraisers doesn't help! I'm into a bit of punk myself but the sound and attitude of today is house / garage / DnB and the scene around this is massively diverse. Bar maybe 'rave against racism' which seems to attract old skool ravers (i.e. those around in the nineties...) this new current of British subculture with the same inherently anti-authoritarian nature of punk is being ignored when it has the opportunity to draw so many youngsters into our ranks.

2) Another issue is the constant black block tactics. AFN has taken what should be an employable tactic - masking up and wearing black - and turned it into a fashion statement! The arrests after the fight outside that bar at March for England show that black bloc doesn't even make you that anonymous, and it clearly doesn't make you inconspicuous to the plod or the filth... How can you expect to get close enough to do some serious damage or even snatch a banner or wreck a PA when you can be spotted a mile off? It's ineffective and dogmatic and again its part of that whole anarcho-crusty culture which is just the opposite of working class sensibility and style. Sounds bitchy but it honestly puts regular lads who dress like casuals or whatever off.

3) AFN isn't just isn't that good on the pavement. This reflects the calibre of activists that are drawn into its orbit. They are either incapable or unwilling of actually taking on the fash physically when it comes down to it. There's a video (titled something like 'march for england antifascists streetfight brighton') of an antifa with this giant backpack on and their hands up during the fight outside that pub in Brighton at MFE as if they're begging 'don't hurt me!' why on earth was this gimp on the frontline? sure enough they are thrown to the floor in the video and scuttle off. It's embarrassing. And that antifa was very lucky not to be seriously hurt.

4) AFN has fallen into the trap of banner waving counter-demos all dressed nicely in black bloc which do nothing, whilst the fash are unopposed physically.

5) Ideologically AFN seems committed to intersectionality to a point which marginalises a class narrative (i.e. fascism, nationalism, etc. is inherently anti-working class) which is exactly what is needed to start drawing the white working class - who the far right target and mostly consist off - back into the orbit of the left more generally. I stopped going on AFN callouts after one 'antifa' called me out for calling an NWI'er a cunt because it was sexist! I'd be happy to debate words and sexism over a pint or something, but not when you are about to go toe to toe with someone who wants to cave your head in. The dogmatic commitment to intersectionality and horizontal organising etc. translates into being ineffective on the street. Group dynamics are a funny thing and without an organiser calling the shots and directing a group on the streets the group just runs around and more often then not runs away. And If you need to use a gendered swearword to prepare yourself to get involved then so be it.
Nice one Tom . I reckon a new thread is needed for this discussion rather than this one. You up for starting it as a new thread?
 
TomSorrent - some of your analysis is spot on but I think it applies more to the generic 'antifa' phenomenon than it does the AFN itself. The AFN is only a loose collection of groups in different towns - all of whom wanted to work against the latest wave of ultra-nationalism outside of the remit of the UAF with it's police co-ordinated demos.

There are some big issues with AFN which are stopping it from doing what it set out too.

1) It's got no basis in the working class (even predomantily middle class organisations like UAF at least had support from blue collar unions like the RMT) and it is dominated by students. From a few experiences on demos and the 'antifa' types I know, AFN activists tend to be middle class anarcho-fantasist crusties who have no connection to working class concerns or aims. And sadly this association puts people who don't fit that label off joining - only putting on punk gigs as fundraisers doesn't help! I'm into a bit of punk myself but the sound and attitude of today is house / garage / DnB and the scene around this is massively diverse. Bar maybe 'rave against racism' which seems to attract old skool ravers (i.e. those around in the nineties...) this new current of British subculture with the same inherently anti-authoritarian nature of punk is being ignored when it has the opportunity to draw so many youngsters into our ranks.


A lot of the AFN activists I've met (I'm based on the South Coast) are working class. We're not all bin-men but we're not all university lecturers either if you know what I mean. I don't know if that gives us a working class basis as such – certainly we've worked with unions and the local trades council when the fash have come to town. We don't live in an era of a united militant working class – if we did then our struggle would be very different.

A lot of your criticism seems aimed at 'antifa' types. To be honest I despair of a few of them as well. Don't automatically confuse them with the AFN.

Punk is what it is. I'm not a punk but it is an easily politicised sub-culture. Punk bands offer to play benefit gigs for anti-fascists and are willing to take the risk that their gigs will be attacked – if a house or garage DJ or soundsystem were to make the same offer it's hard to see any anti-fascist group turning them down.

2) Another issue is the constant black block tactics. AFN has taken what should be an employable tactic - masking up and wearing black - and turned it into a fashion statement! The arrests after the fight outside that bar at March for England show that black bloc doesn't even make you that anonymous, and it clearly doesn't make you inconspicuous to the plod or the filth...

As a matter of fact Sussex Police were looking for around forty people to arrest for this incident. According to what I've been told this consisted of thirteen EDL and twenty-seven 'antifa'. At the moment there are nine EDL and only two antifa on trial – so masking up does actually help make you anonymous.

How can you expect to get close enough to do some serious damage or even snatch a banner or wreck a PA when you can be spotted a mile off? It's ineffective and dogmatic and again its part of that whole anarcho-crusty culture which is just the opposite of working class sensibility and style. Sounds bitchy but it honestly puts regular lads who dress like casuals or whatever off.

I don't know if the “working class” have a unified sensibility or style. Tactically black block can work well – I agree that it is pointlessly fetishised and yes we've had results dressing slightly differently – on one occasion drawing howls of outrage from the opposition that we “weren't real casuals – just commies dressed as casuals”.

3) AFN isn't just isn't that good on the pavement. This reflects the calibre of activists that are drawn into its orbit. They are either incapable or unwilling of actually taking on the fash physically when it comes down to it. There's a video (titled something like 'march for england antifascists streetfight brighton') of an antifa with this giant backpack on and their hands up during the fight outside that pub in Brighton at MFE as if they're begging 'don't hurt me!' why on earth was this gimp on the frontline? sure enough they are thrown to the floor in the video and scuttle off. It's embarrassing. And that antifa was very lucky not to be seriously hurt.

It's a bit harsh to condemn an entire movement off the back of three minutes of Youtube footage. There are numerous incidences of AFN activists taking on the fash physically and doing pretty well. Needless to say this can't really be gone into. Most of the opposition aren't all that on the pavement either.

4) AFN has fallen into the trap of banner waving counter-demos all dressed nicely in black bloc which do nothing, whilst the fash are unopposed physically.


Can you point to specific examples of this? – it might be useful.

5) Ideologically AFN seems committed to intersectionality to a point which marginalises a class narrative (i.e. fascism, nationalism, etc. is inherently anti-working class) which is exactly what is needed to start drawing the white working class - who the far right target and mostly consist off - back into the orbit of the left more generally. I stopped going on AFN callouts after one 'antifa' called me out for calling an NWI'er a cunt because it was sexist! I'd be happy to debate words and sexism over a pint or something, but not when you are about to go toe to toe with someone who wants to cave your head in. The dogmatic commitment to intersectionality and horizontal organising etc. translates into being ineffective on the street. Group dynamics are a funny thing and without an organiser calling the shots and directing a group on the streets the group just runs around and more often then not runs away. And If you need to use a gendered swearword to prepare yourself to get involved then so be it.

This might be characteristic of where you are in the country (from the fact that it was the NWI you were confronting) but it's not the case down here. We're a right bunch of sweary Marys.
I think that overall you have confused AFN with the wider 'antifa' phenomenon. There are literally hundreds of Facebook groups calling themselves 'antifa' out there. AFN aren't in contact with even a tiny percentage of them. They issue their own call-outs and often do make tits of themselves. I'm reluctant to criticise anyone for having a go but when what you've learned about how to act on the street comes entirely from immersion in an online subculture of 'avin Youtube footage it's not a surprise that real life can come as a hard slap in the face. This is where the hordes of skinny youngsters in black hoodies who hang around sheepishly when it kicks off and run away shouting “kettle” whenever they see a copper come from – not the AFN.
 
all fair responses. Just posting a few general points and then picking up some specifics:

Just to set the scene I was raised in the west country but a lot of my family live in the north west and I'm now a student in the south east. So I've been an active member of left groups in the west country and been on a handful of anti-fascist callouts in the south west and the north west. To be fair the call outs I've been on may not have been AFN, and you're right that i've mixed up AFN with generic 'antifa'. The NWI "cunt" incident was in oldham at their recent outing curtesy of some skinny lad in black bloc - looking online now I can't find an AFN callout...

...The problem is that as a fairly peripheral activist that's the honest impression I had of militant antifascism as a whole. Talking to a mate today who's not involved at all (or that bothered to be fair), he had the same idea. AFN and generic 'antifa' groups might be different organisationally, characteristically, etc. but they're perceived to be the same and the judgement i made (rightly or wrongly...) was enough to put me off really committing to the cause.

1) I get you on this. I'm working class but I've ended up at a fairly reputable uni and will probable be considered middle class on-paper when (/if) I graduate... my point is I don't expect everyone to be the archetypal worker of the good ol' days of the miners and that, but there still seems to be an absence of working class character in a lot of anti-fash groups - they tend to be organised around unis and personally i didn't consider this a natural space for me until i went to uni myself. The stuff going on at clapton and FCUM is positive in this respect.

2) I didn't know the specifics of that until now so I stand corrected on that one. Glad people are safe from prosecutions. Yeah I'll apologise for the generalisation on style as well (I did warn everyone it was a little bitchy...), I was thinking of my 'clobber' loving mates from home while imaging them in black block and something just didn't compute!

3) see general point about being fairly peripheral or 'objective' if i want to kiss my own arse. For people who haven't been around long enough to have been going on actions for years like myself or for people interested in getting involved this youtube footage is all they see... And Brighton are pretty infamous as a strong AFN branch and MfE has been a big deal in recent years - as someone who has never been involved in Brighton it was just bleak to see. It works both ways though I suppose *cracking* footage of 161 crew butting Bret Vaughan (NWI) in Manchester.

4) I'm thinking of the high profile arrest of the tower hamlets 286. Again just a single instance, but grouping together behind a banner seemed to restrict movement and options on the floor in my opinion - as an observer. I've never been involved in London either (geography gets in the way) but it seems to be another one of the strongest AFN groups. Obviously we've got the benefit of hindsight now and all that, but it seemed a poorly thought plan from my arm chair...

and re. the punk bias LDN antifascists have just put out a flyer for a reggae night that looks pretty decent! Would be down there if it was a little closer.
 
under which section UK politics or protest demos ???
i did ask lazy llama about this a week or so back (obviously too lazy!!!!)
 
There are some big issues with AFN which are stopping it from doing what it set out too.

1) I....................And If you need to use a gendered swearword to prepare yourself to get involved then so be it.

hey TS, can you repost this in the new thread so we can expand on these very crucial points, cheers Mal.
 
I was going to when i get a chance. Someone has done one and it's totally not what i'm interested in - in fact it's just a continuation of this shit. I'll try and do one more around what i was after later.
okay, delete that one and put yours up instead. I wasnt sure if anyone was going to do it and what the scope was.
 
okay, delete that one and put yours up instead. I wasnt sure if anyone was going to do it and what the scope was.
I can't delete it! I'll do one on the lines i suggested when i get a chance - now ain't it. Anyone else can start a thread on same if they want - your one was just not even close to what i was after.
 
There are some big issues with AFN which are stopping it from doing what it set out too.

1) It's got no basis in the working class (even predomantily middle class organisations like UAF at least had support from blue collar unions like the RMT) and it is dominated by students. From a few experiences on demos and the 'antifa' types I know, AFN activists tend to be middle class anarcho-fantasist crusties who have no connection to working class concerns or aims. And sadly this association puts people who don't fit that label off joining - only putting on punk gigs as fundraisers doesn't help! I'm into a bit of punk myself but the sound and attitude of today is house / garage / DnB and the scene around this is massively diverse. Bar maybe 'rave against racism' which seems to attract old skool ravers (i.e. those around in the nineties...) this new current of British subculture with the same inherently anti-authoritarian nature of punk is being ignored when it has the opportunity to draw so many youngsters into our ranks.

2) Another issue is the constant black block tactics. AFN has taken what should be an employable tactic - masking up and wearing black - and turned it into a fashion statement! The arrests after the fight outside that bar at March for England show that black bloc doesn't even make you that anonymous, and it clearly doesn't make you inconspicuous to the plod or the filth... How can you expect to get close enough to do some serious damage or even snatch a banner or wreck a PA when you can be spotted a mile off? It's ineffective and dogmatic and again its part of that whole anarcho-crusty culture which is just the opposite of working class sensibility and style. Sounds bitchy but it honestly puts regular lads who dress like casuals or whatever off.

3) AFN isn't just isn't that good on the pavement. This reflects the calibre of activists that are drawn into its orbit. They are either incapable or unwilling of actually taking on the fash physically when it comes down to it. There's a video (titled something like 'march for england antifascists streetfight brighton') of an antifa with this giant backpack on and their hands up during the fight outside that pub in Brighton at MFE as if they're begging 'don't hurt me!' why on earth was this gimp on the frontline? sure enough they are thrown to the floor in the video and scuttle off. It's embarrassing. And that antifa was very lucky not to be seriously hurt.

4) AFN has fallen into the trap of banner waving counter-demos all dressed nicely in black bloc which do nothing, whilst the fash are unopposed physically.

5) Ideologically AFN seems committed to intersectionality to a point which marginalises a class narrative (i.e. fascism, nationalism, etc. is inherently anti-working class) which is exactly what is needed to start drawing the white working class - who the far right target and mostly consist off - back into the orbit of the left more generally. I stopped going on AFN callouts after one 'antifa' called me out for calling an NWI'er a cunt because it was sexist! I'd be happy to debate words and sexism over a pint or something, but not when you are about to go toe to toe with someone who wants to cave your head in. The dogmatic commitment to intersectionality and horizontal organising etc. translates into being ineffective on the street. Group dynamics are a funny thing and without an organiser calling the shots and directing a group on the streets the group just runs around and more often then not runs away. And If you need to use a gendered swearword to prepare yourself to get involved then so be it.

Like thunderfist said some of this is on point, but some of it misses the mark widely, and I think the AFN suffer a bit from anything that isn't a UAF action gets labelled an AFN action.
Look on the AFN website for a list of affiliated groups.
In regards to your first point of having no basis in the class, the group I would be most aware of are predominantly although not exclusively working class , do have one or two students and Crusties, but equally a few republicans, casuals, most are anarchists but there are some members of communist/ socialist groups, various trade unions etc. The group have run ragga, Dnb and hip hop nights etc, but as punk bands are always willing to do benefits and money is easily made, their worth doing. In regards to working with trade unions , this is something that LAF have done on a few occasions, but in general UAF are essentially the franchised outsourced antifascist arm of the trade unions. LAF have consistently agrued against the "front so broad, that Tories can join" MO of UAF, that anti fascism should be an arm of a movement against capitalism not a end in itself or worse a defender of the status quo.( the "this is a multicultural area and we like it the way it is" mentality, no it's an underfunded area where government cuts often implemented by the Labour Party are having a detrimental effect on people's lives and fueling massive social problems, this is not how we fuckin like it! )

Your second point re black block, it's become a trope really, although at times useful. But I agree with you on this, however your "why is this gimp on the frontline" argument , he was there, where were you? Don't mean this as a personal attack but people form autonomous groups and attend callouts, can't knock em for it.

Point 3 ) completely disagree, to my knowledge an AFN group has never being turned over, that's not to say these other "antifa" groups thunderfist alluded to haven't, but I think there is a genuine problem of not being able to consistently mobilise to decisive victories, due to a lack of numbers. I could list any amount of recent events the fash have been turned over at, away from big demos etc. but that wouldn't be too clever, just so ya know in not givin it the billy big bollix will juxtapose this by saying there's more times numbers have meant intel wasn't acted on.

On point 4 ) and again I'm only speaking for my experience but one of the things the AFN wanted to attempt was being able to mobilise both large counter demos and direct actions to stop marches happening, that would involve blocking roads (where banners come in handy) and allowing participation of people who aren't going to go into a pub and give it "whowanssssum" but are prepared to take part in mass direct action. This has worked in some places (Brighton) , fell flat on its face in others (tower hamlets) , the police are really the biggest factor on a given day.

5) intersectionality, I really haven't see.this to be the case, although it does seem to be a fascination of the unorganised anarcho student hordes I have not heard it being put forward by any AFN people, have you seen that on blogs or facebook pages of AFN affiliated groups? I'm not on Facebook so maybe it goes on on there but never heard it discussed by any
AFN people.

All in all, there is a lot left wanting from the AFN, but for all it's faults there are local groups that you can join and influence, it's is not a front, it can be engaged with. There isn't admittedly a cohesive national strategy, this is badly lacking.
CCTV and on the point policing have made havin it toe to toe even more precarious, and strings of nicking a have at times really put the skids on groups. New tactics have to be brought to the fore, some of them will fall flat , some of them have worked and will work again.
 
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lol. I'll say again lol. A grown fucking man saying lol.


That's all it was worth.

I haven't got the time to formulate the title I promised two days ago, but I'll berate anyone else for getting it wrong.

It would have taken you less time than it took to search youtube. Do you want the discussion or not?
 
That's all it was worth.

I haven't got the time to formulate the title I promised two days ago, but I'll berate anyone else for getting it wrong.

It would have taken you less time than it took to search youtube. Do you want the discussion or not?

I wanted to do a thread that was a bit more than a title. That might be your standard of thread but not mine. There are things to discuss so a) getting them right and b) saying them are rather important.

lol
 
I wanted to do a thread that was a bit more than a title. That might be your standard of thread but not mine. There are things to discuss so a) getting them right and b) saying them are rather important.

lol

I wasn't the one making promises. Keep them waiting and the ticket prices go up.

lol.
 
Btw wouldn't be seen dead in black block Meself, clobber all the way, which on one occasion of havin it with an edl'er a load of other edl thought the boyo gettin done was a leftie so joined in, another time two lads came up to a group of us to tell us where the reds were, that didn't end too well for them!
 
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