EDL watch

[Citizen66]

like I said ... I ain't digging...there is obviously a logic here or a political argument that has bypassed me...I am simply asking if anyone can explain it to me.

Well the edl aren't nazis for starters although some of their members might be.

 

[comrade spurski]

ok ... so is that the reason that some on here don't think that their marches should opposed.

I ask cos some have said that they think that some of the counter marches are simply hyping the nazi threat for their own recruitment purposes.

I'm not sure that not opposing the edl on the grounds that it (the edl) is not an (openly) nazi party is something I agree with...I do understand the other argument but am uncomfortable with "ignoring them and they'll go away" type of thought...

I think racists can be argued with and won over...i think the edl leaders are more than just people with racist ideas but obviously I may be wrong

 

[Limerick Red]

ok ... so is that the reason that some on here don't think that their marches should opposed.

I ask cos some have said that they think that some of the counter marches are simply hyping the nazi threat for their own recruitment purposes.

I'm not sure that not opposing the edl on the grounds that it (the edl) is not an (openly) nazi party is something I agree with...I do understand the other argument but am uncomfortable with "ignoring them and they'll go away" type of thought...

I think racists can be argued with and won over...i think the edl leaders are more than just people with racist ideas but obviously I may be wrong

There are a few different positions on this thread, and I certainly do not think they (The EDL) should be ignored, and would encourge everyone to come out on the 7th and get involved in whatever capacity they can.

People are pissed off with alot of the so-called lefts inability to tackle the EDL on a politcal level, and if you read through the thread, you will see there is alot of anger at the complete class hatred shown by so called anti-fascist websites and social media outlets. The fact that the appeareance,mannerism and education levels of the EDL seem to be their beef, rather than the politics and issues they claim.

I have sympathy with the position that some people take, although dont agree with it myself, that time spent "being an anti-fascist" or going on anti-fascist demos, would be better spent organising in communities and tackling the root of where fascists come from, i.e the conditions that drive people to turn against one another, rather than the state which is creating these conditions through adherence to certain econmic philosophies.

Not attacking you, but the use of the term Nazi in regards to the EDL is a smear to avoid having to tackle their agenda. Sure they have some neo-nazis in their ranks, but those with their heads screwed on see every time they are seeing giving seig heils, its a wind up to the people opposing them, not evidence of a national socialist ideology.
We have very real and valid reasons to hate and oppose them, we dont need to make up ones.

See you on the 7th.

 

[Citizen66]

The argument put forward by a few on here is that opposing them legitimises them; gives them a reason to continue where as ignoring them might hasten their inevitable demise. They were certainly on their last legs prior to the Lee Rigby killing and there's nothing to suggest that won't be their natural trajectory now.

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm sure the 'ignore them and they will go away' argument doesn't sound so great when its your town centre where they are kicking things and being pricks though.

I'm not sure the uaf/edl symbiotic thesis has much legs tbh.

 

[comrade spurski]

There are a few different positions on this thread, and I certainly do not think they (The EDL) should be ignored, and would encourge everyone to come out on the 7th and get involved in whatever capacity they can.

People are pissed off with alot of the so-called lefts inability to tackle the EDL on a politcal level, and if you read through the thread, you will see there is alot of anger at the complete class hatred shown by so called anti-fascist websites and social media outlets. The fact that the appeareance,mannerism and education levels of the EDL seem to be their beef, rather than the politics and issues they claim.

I have sympathy with the position that some people take, although dont agree with it myself, that time spent "being an anti-fascist" or going on anti-fascist demos, would be better spent organising in communities and tackling the root of where fascists come from, i.e the conditions that drive people to turn against one another, rather than the state which is creating these conditions through adherence to certain econmic philosophies.

Not attacking you, but the use of the term Nazi in regards to the EDL is a smear to avoid having to tackle their agenda. Sure they have some neo-nazis in their ranks, but those with their heads screwed on see every time they are seeing giving seig heils, its a wind up to the people opposing them, not evidence of a national socialist ideology.
We have very real and valid reasons to hate and oppose them, we dont need to make up ones.

See you on the 7th.

cheers for answering...

I too agree that work needs to be done in our communities to counter the cuts which, in my experience, aid the rise and spread of racist ideas.

I also get the point re appearance, mannerisms and educational levels of edl members being used to oppose them...I remember working on the isle of dogs in th early 90's when derek beacon was elected for the bnp. He was interviewed on tv about council budgets and they made him look stupid...when we were campaigning against the cuts and against the bnp on the doorsteps he had a lot of sympathy from a large minority who felt that the snearing was because he was a "normal bloke" and not middle class like the other politicians...the piss taking was very counter productive.
One of the big things that got the bnp to lose the second election on the isle of dogs was the campaign to save a local health centre which pulled together a lot of different sections of the community including the local union members, residents, students, religious groups etc.

I'm not sure that I agree that the edl are not a nazi group...think I need to read a bit more, talk to others (quite difficult in the summer holidays when I am at home with my kids and don't see adults let alone talk politics with any!) and think about it...but again I agree that simply shouting "nazis of our streets" at them is missing the point.
Some of the anti edl demos put on YouTube has seemed almost pointless in some ways...filled with lots of posturing from behind police lines opposing far greater numbers ... lots of chanting and very few (if any) unaligned anti racists/anti nazis...and no union or student banners (I know it's not the be all and end all to have union banners but it can be a postive sign if there are local union banners on demos imo).

Think I am going on now so... once again thanks for answering

 

[comrade spurski]

The argument put forward by a few on here is that opposing them legitimises them; gives them a reason to continue where as ignoring them might hasten their inevitable demise. They were certainly on their last legs prior to the Lee Rigby killing and there's nothing to suggest that won't be their natural trajectory now.

Cheers for the answering...need to think and read about it a bit more

 

[SpineyNorman]

like I said ... I ain't digging...there is obviously a logic here or a political argument that has bypassed me...I am simply asking if anyone can explain it to me.

I'm not so bothered about the debate over whether to go and oppose them - if it was local to me and I could get there I probably would.

But while there's probably a few Nazis involved the EDL are not 'the Nazis'. They're right wing nationalists who have more sympathy for Zionism than Nazism. They're so obviously not Nazis that by calling them Nazis all you do is make yourself look ridiculous and discredit the decent arguments you're no doubt making at the same time.

 

[Citizen66]

I don't think the edl even know what they are. They're basically an anti Islam pressure group but also have Nationalist tendencies such as opposing left wing stuff, unions etc. but they have a Jewish division. Because Israel doesn't like mussies either. They're all over the fucking place.

 

[DotCommunist]

I don't think the edl even know what they are. They're basically an anti Islam pressure group but also have Nationalist tendencies such as opposing left wing stuff, unions etc. but they have a Jewish division. Because Israel doesn't like mussies either. They're all over the fucking place.

that was one bloke and he left


its almost literally a church and king mob tbf- although it is also home fore ageing nf sorts and that- and football aggro types who can't really do that anymore cos being nicked for footie aggro these days comes with an insanely high penalty

far too many of them are scared and angry. And what have we got to offer them? Taafes Little Book of Thoughts?

I dunno. I'm not a hug-a-hoolie liberal but at the same time it needs to be understood that w/c street movements such as the EDL will contain lots of scared lads. Yeah there will be state operatives, ageing BM sorts, genuine ideological racists and so on. But not all of them.

before anyone wants to start I'm a red, their idealouges would despise me. But there has to be a better way than this. I don't know what that way is, and I can't afford the busfare to go chant 'narsis off our strests' at a bunch of sadsacks in last seasons england shirts. It's pointless anyway

confused post I know. I just want peace between my class and focus on the real enemy

 

[Citizen66]

far too many of them are scared and angry. And what have we got to offer them? Taafes Little Book of Thoughts?

I dunno. I'm not a hug-a-hoolie liberal but at the same time it needs to be understood that w/c street movements such as the EDL will contain lots of scared lads.

But couldn't the same be said for all nationalist street movements? I'm sure the NF of the 70s had its fair share of alienated wwc in its ranks. And the BNP too.

 

[Pickman's model]

confused post I know. I just want peace between my class and focus on the real enemy

confused indeed: you mean 'among' and not 'between'.

 

[Citizen66]

confused indeed: you mean 'among' and not 'between'.

Pedantry is alive and well I see.

 

[Citizen66]

that was one bloke and he left

I don't think the membership levels of that division are important. What it illustrates is that the edl are willing to collaborate with Jewish people against Muslims. Unsurprisingly the majority of Jewish people aren't daft enough to jump into bed with a group that resembles white Nationalism.

There's also the Sikh collaboration stuff too. Not sure what my point is here other than it isn't really representative of a 'Nazi' group. In fact, isn't that what caused the breakaway Infidel group to form? Or other typical infighting bollocks?

 

[Pickman's model]

Citizen66 not pedantry to point out your inability to say what you mean

 

[Corax]

Are "the left" either
1) unwilling to engage in the arguments of right wing nationalism, as they feel it is below them.
2) unable to engage in the arguments as they fear they are not able to win them, therefore turn the issue from a politcal one into a moral one, that transcends class and politics, turn the enemy into mytical bad men,evil monsters, nazis etc. then turns to the state they proclaim to be in opposition to, to deal with the issue.

Lots of different reasons for different people I'm sure. But I think a lot of people that see themselves as being in some regard on 'the left' have repeatedly tried engaging with right-wing nationalists, and become frustrated that the level of response makes any rational discourse impossible.

Before anyone bites my head off, that doesn't mean that ceasing to try is the right response, and it also doesn't mean that every right-wing nationalist is an idiot and/or unwilling to engage with the issues. From what I've read of far-right opinions of 'lefties', I suspect that those on that side of the spectrum that try to engage their opposition in discussion receive a similar response, probably with knee-jerk accusations of nazism etc.

So we're left with two groups at opposite ends of the spectrum, both of whom contain idiots. Probably a vocal minority in both camps, although I've no evidence either way for that tbh. But many of those that aren't idiots end up considering the idiots of their opposition as being representative, and give up attempts at meaningful communication.

 

[DotCommunist]

Citizen66 not pedantry to point out your inability to say what you mean

but it would be pedantry to point out that he was reacting to a poor choice of language by myself would it not?

So put that in you pipe and smoke it

 

[frogwoman]

they're not nazis ffs.

and you can be a fascist and not be a nazi.

 

[Citizen66]

Citizen66 not pedantry to point out your inability to say what you mean

You're still correcting syntax in the written form.

 

[Corax]

they're not nazis ffs.

and you can be a fascist and not be a nazi.

 

[frogwoman]

it shouldn't even fuckin need saying tbf but it does ... usually to the same people who like to use lack of education as a substitute for political criticism

 

[Citizen66]

it shouldn't even fuckin need saying tbf but it does ... usually to the same people who like to use lack of education as a substitute for political criticism

Well both 'Nazi' and 'Fascist' are widely used as derogatory terms towards certain people/behaviours. Which obviously doesn't play out well in a political discussion. But that's where it stems from imo.

 

[Pickman's model]

You're still correcting syntax in the written form.

I'm simply saying you have peace among the working class not between the working class. It's an error which would embarrass a child of eight.

 

[comrade spurski]

I'm not so bothered about the debate over whether to go and oppose them - if it was local to me and I could get there I probably would.

But while there's probably a few Nazis involved the EDL are not 'the Nazis'. They're right wing nationalists who have more sympathy for Zionism than Nazism. They're so obviously not Nazis that by calling them Nazis all you do is make yourself look ridiculous and discredit the decent arguments you're no doubt making at the same time.

I would never use the term Nazi lightly but I am not sure I agree that they are not a Nazi organisation.

Their leaders are middle class, they seem to hate unions and organised groups of workers, scapegoat a visible religious group with their rabid anti Islam propaganda (which spills over into anti asian hatred if my experiences in Woolwich - where I live- is anything to go by). They use racism and religion as a tool to divide people and also slate all the main political parties.

The only difference I see between them and the BNP is that the BNP have stood in elections and the EDL haven't.

They are more of a mobilising movement than a party and undoubtedly not everyone who identifies with them is a Nazi.

Like I said earlier ... I am not sure what I think so wanted to read what others think so cheers for taking the time to answer

 

[Pickman's model]

but it would be pedantry to point out that he was reacting to a poor choice of language by myself would it not?

So put that in you pipe and smoke it

His choice of language was worse than poor

 

[Pickman's model]

I would never use the term Nazi lightly but I am not sure I agree that they are not a Nazi organisation.

Their leaders are middle class, they seem to hate unions and organised groups of workers, scapegoat a visible religious group with their rabid anti Islam propaganda (which spills over into anti asian hatred if my experiences in Woolwich - where I live- is anything to go by). They use racism and religion as a tool to divide people and also slate all the main political parties.

The only difference I see between them and the BNP is that the BNP have stood in elections and the EDL haven't.

They are more of a mobilising movement than a party and undoubtedly not everyone who identifies with them is a Nazi.

Like I said earlier ... I am not sure what I think so wanted to read what others think so cheers for taking the time to answer

Perhaps you should read eg the anatomy of fascism and also some stuff about church and king mobs who the edl more obviously resemble than the nsdap.

 

[Corax]

I'm simply saying you have peace among the working class not between the working class. It's an error which would embarrass a child of eight.

Unless the eight year old was EDL. Cos they're all dead thick y'know.

 

[Corax]

The only difference I see between them and the BNP is that the BNP have stood in elections and the EDL haven't.

The BNP aren't nazis either.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I would never use the term Nazi lightly but I am not sure I agree that they are not a Nazi organisation.

Their leaders are middle class, they seem to hate unions and organised groups of workers, scapegoat a visible religious group with their rabid anti Islam propaganda (which spills over into anti asian hatred if my experiences in Woolwich - where I live- is anything to go by). They use racism and religion as a tool to divide people and also slate all the main political parties.

The only difference I see between them and the BNP is that the BNP have stood in elections and the EDL haven't.

They are more of a mobilising movement than a party and undoubtedly not everyone who identifies with them is a Nazi.

Like I said earlier ... I am not sure what I think so wanted to read what others think so cheers for taking the time to answer

The BNP aren't a Nazi party either (not anymore anyway, if they ever really were). Racism and opposition to the left and labour movement does not a Nazi make - if it did half the Tory party would be Nazis.

 

[Citizen66]

I'm simply saying you have peace among the working class not between the working class. It's an error which would embarrass a child of eight.

You clearly haven't had much experience of children aged eight recently.