Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

EDL watch

The Times definitively exposed it as a forgery in the early '20s. The Morning Post was the openly anti-semitic national paper (now part of The Telegraph) that reprinted parts of the Protocols.
 
butchersapron said:
The Times definitively exposed it as a forgery in the early '20s. The Morning Post was the openly anti-semitic national paper (now part of The Telegraph) that reprinted parts of the Protocols.
Click to expand...


I thought they printed it first and then a bit later exposed it as a forgery?
 
frogwoman said:
I thought they printed it first and then a bit later exposed it as a forgery?
Click to expand...

Yes - sort of, but they never printed it - they ran a thing in 1920 that was based on nothing and just basically said is this true?, it was the typical elite anti-semitism of international politics types of the time (woodrow wilson type of stuff) and then the total expose in 1921. Whereas the MP went as far as running extensive sections of the book then another book which expanded on the Protocols.
 
frogwoman said:
the people who wrote that encyclopedia were only representing themselves, that wasn't the huge majority of people. that wasn't normal society, I don't believe there was ever much in the way of working class support for Hitler or Nazism in this country. what there was was often undercut quite successful by groups like the communist party with their campaigns against evictions in London. there was loads of that sort of shit in the 30s like the author of just william writing about william and his mates tormenting a jewish man by pretending to be nazis, she also wrote stories with the implication that they shouldn't play with "common" boys and wrote about "savages from India". you have to think about what the audience for that stuff was in a time when there was a huge amount of repression against the working class and what was considered to be a real threat of a revolution.

the times wrote a puff piece in the 20s for the protocols, but it was only a small proportion of the populace that read that type of thing let alone believe it. I don't believe the majority of people in the country believed that shit. I don't think that it is true. In fact when Jewish refugees came to this country they were often almost shocked at how tolerant and accepting people were of them.
Click to expand...

Certain people could do with looking into the bit in bold and thinking about its implications for how we deal with the EDL and similar groups.
 
ah ok. yeh that's pretty much what i thought had happened.

I didn't know about the Morning Post though. What sort of readership did that paper have?
 
SpineyNorman said:
Certain people could do with looking into the bit in bold and thinking about its implications for how we deal with the EDL and similar groups.
Click to expand...


yep, i remember hearing about the (Stalinist) Communist Party and their anti-fascist campaigns during the 30s, I think it was at a SP meeting where the EDL was being discussed. Apparently they ran a campaign to save families from eviction and got into some controversy because one of the families they were defending, the father was a blackshirt. They overlooked the guys political views and viewed him as a working class person facing eviction. obviously this approach, while not tolerating fascist views, was far more effective at both defending them from eviction and completely showing fascism up for what it was - an ideology that served capital and not the working class.
 
frogwoman said:
yep, i remember hearing about the (Stalinist) Communist Party and their anti-fascist campaigns during the 30s, I think it was at a SP meeting where the EDL was being discussed. Apparently they ran a campaign to save families from eviction and got into some controversy because one of the families they were defending, the father was a blackshirt. They overlooked the guys political views and viewed him as a working class person facing eviction. obviously this approach, while not tolerating fascist views, was far more effective at both defending them from eviction and completely showing fascism up for what it was - an ideology that served capital and not the working class.
Click to expand...
It's all in piratin's book, a favourite for the swp in putting forward its political case for the anl. However it is also a prime bit of popular front propaganda.
 
frogwoman said:
ah ok. yeh that's pretty much what i thought had happened.

I didn't know about the Morning Post though. What sort of readership did that paper have?
Click to expand...

50 000 at the time - so at around the same level as The Independent today, but without the history and therefore the influence and reputation the MP had of once being the most widely read paper in the country.
 
barney_pig said:
It's all in piratin's book, a favourite for the swp in putting forward its political case for the anl. However it is also a prime bit of popular front propaganda.
Click to expand...


That explains why a member of the ISN used the baliffs and the CPGB as an example of why popular front rather than class based strategies were more effective lol
 
frogwoman said:
I'm a bit sick of this facebook analysis going around that because the government is doing some repressive things it means we're going to become a fascist regime. It's not fascism, it's capitalism - and it's also dangerous because it implies because a regime is not fascist that means it's all right.
Click to expand...
Here's one comment I picked up on a facebook 'benefits claimants fightback group page' yesterday which is completely barking:
Is there anywhere left to shop at? Fascist Sportdirect.com.
Click to expand...
""Show up for work and we might employ you that day????""
What kind of sick multi million pound boss thought this was okay?
Click to expand...
I pointed out that they're obviously taking advantage of the neoliberal agenda which has been around for the last 30 years, but it's not fascism. Exploitation, which is the hall-mark of capitalism it clearly is. If it was fascism you wouldn't be posting here criticising this company and then got this gem in reply:
Germans sat drinking in the cafes while others disappeared (same here).
Click to expand...
Germans sat and criticised the workcamps and the corporations involved (same here).
Germans voted for others, got fascism (same here).
Nazis populated media with hate for others (same here) the populace terrorised (same here).
One day they woke up and didn't dare criticise any longer (happening here).
Fascism progresses, it doesn't just arrive one day.
If we leave it to late to call it what it is, then it may well be too late to call it what it is. Fascism.
Click to expand...
Wonder what the SS Division of Sprtdirect.com dress like?
 
the problem with that is that it makes critics of the government look ridiculous, as if they're seeing fascism in everything. I understand why people are doing it. And I think there are parallels with the 30s (eta: but EVERY capitalist state has parallels with them), but I think that if you think the UK is fascist you seriously need to take a look at yourself. There are plenty of regimes where worse things are going on like China but yet they're not fascist either.
 
On a lighter note, I've just found out why the EDL is bad. It's because they haven't said ANYTHING about those shops who are selling padded bras for 5 year old girls. The bastatrds.


I just saw it posted for real on twitter*. I have followed the still-laughing crowd for the odd bit of useful intel they post but that was enough for me. They've all gone now to protect my sanity!

*unless it was a brilliant troll
 
frogwoman said:
the problem with that is that it makes critics of the government look ridiculous,
Click to expand...

The poster in question needs no help in looking ridiculous.

1011715_4703608120802_1232031661_n.jpg
 
krink said:
On a lighter note, I've just found out why the EDL is bad. It's because they haven't said ANYTHING about those shops who are selling padded bras for 5 year old girls. The bastatrds.


I just saw it posted for real on twitter*. I have followed the still-laughing crowd for the odd bit of useful intel they post but that was enough for me. They've all gone now to protect my sanity!

*unless it was a brilliant troll
Click to expand...


shit, all this time I've thought the EDL were great but now the scales have fallen from my eyes :eek:
 
butchersapron said:
Give up youtube - read some actual books. Where was the 'considerable sympathy and respect that Hitler had over here'? What sections of the population did it come from primarily? How did it manifest itself? What was driving it? What were its consequences. Do you like my philosophy football Up the RAF! t-shirt, it only cost £20.
Click to expand...


I didn't reference YT. I referenced a book. That's as dismal a case as something I read by ID fucking S earlier.

I expect the sympathy for fascism came from the aristos and the bourgeois on the whole.

"Hurrah For The Blackshirts" is hardly a niche area of knowledge.

As Orwell * noted, the working class are the best defence against fascism, and I agree (though I don't know if he factored in the large list of "do not trusts" listed above)

Linked to nazi creed was a fairly widespread anti-semitism which Orwell also discussed (though Mussolini seems to have been far less taken with it)

frogwoman - I didn't cite the working class as a basis for that support. The support I am aware of was more establishment, which has long had a more cosy relationship with fascism than it should - not least as a hoped for means of warding off the red menace.

The almanac can be argued to only represent a certain view, though these things try to be neutral in an often liberal way. But it's certainly the case that racism, fascism and authoritarianism had a home in the mentality of many establishment folk across Europe. Does any of this really surprise you?

My only point being that the heroic presentation of the British establishment as anti fascist / nazi is, IMO, exaggerated after the fact for effect.

* a famous bloke who wrote books and essays I have read, apart from The Clergyman's Daughter.
 
frogwoman said:
If anyone is interested in reading that pdf btw its here. I think some bits are quite relevant to what's being discussed here.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5726625/landa_apprentice-1.pdf
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting. I've read the introduction and I'll read the whole piece when I have time. Points that stand out so far are:
Those who wish to comprehend fascist ideology would do well to reckon with the fact that lies, myth-mongering and demagoguery were built into it. This means that anybody who treats fascists as sincere immediately fails, whatever else he or she might be doing, to “take them seriously.”
Click to expand...
and:
The real point is not whether or not to take fascists at their word, but when to do so, and when not to....
Click to expand...
 
barney_pig said:
It's all in piratin's book, a favourite for the swp in putting forward its political case for the anl. However it is also a prime bit of popular front propaganda.
Click to expand...
Iirc the IS used to quote Joe Jacob's book when they took a more militant physical ant-fascist stance in the early 70's. But after Lewisham 1977 and the change of name to the SWP, they adopted a more United Front to anti-fascism with Neil Kinnock et al in the ANL, and started quoting Phil Piratin as the way to operate.
They kept quiet about Morris Beckman's book, The 43 Group, when that was published in 1992.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Cloo
Trans Kids Deserve Better occupying Dept of Education
2
Replies
31
Views
2K
Cloo
Cloo
Aladdin
Boycotting products etc from Israel to help stop the genocide in Palestine 2024
6 7 8 9 10
Replies
293
Views
14K
krtek a houby
krtek a houby
BristolEcho
Wage Theft Workshop (Bristol) - 19th October 2024
Replies
1
Views
483
seventh bullet
seventh bullet
J
Calling all women and allies in Brixton! London
Replies
19
Views
1K
justagirl
J
Cloo
Help - anyone know where the Na'amod Hanukkah event will be today?
Replies
3
Views
402
Cloo
Cloo
Back
Top Bottom