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I do know that, but thanks for your incisive comment. :rolleyes:

So you think it's useful to compare a minor street movement with zero political influence and who the vast majority of the population think are twats to a time when fascism controlled two of the most powerful states in Europe and was busy colonising the rest of it? The point is to make sure the EDL and fellow travelers don't get enough support to be a serious political threat (it had gone a little bit beyond that by the start of WW2) and I don't see how alienating precisely the kind of people they're trying to attract will help in this effort.

If Britain ever turned fascist half the EDL news lot would be right behind it, getting rid of low functioning humans and burning chavs - why would I want to make common cause with these people and why are they any better than the EDL?
 
This sounds like a convenient slogan but is it true? I don't really see how the Weimar Republic was the "foundation, source, and sibling" of Nazi Germany. The Nazis primarily represented those conservative forces who rejected the legitimacy of the Weimar Republic and its 'bourgeois democracy'. In what sense can it be its foundation and source?

Yet they used the Weimar constitution to assume power and were aided in that by the leaders of the Weimar regime. They're both means of maintaining capitalism, and when bourgeois democracy could no longer do that it called on its less subtle sibling.
 
Spotted this earlier elsewhere.

10 Theses on Fascism and How Not to Fight It:
if your number 5) is true then why, when 'democracy' really was 'bourgeois' - that is, only the bourgeoisie had the right to vote - didn't fascism emerge? why did it emerge instead in a period of mass democracy?
 
Yet they used the Weimar constitution to assume power and were aided in that by the leaders of the Weimar regime. They're both means of maintaining capitalism, and when bourgeois democracy could no longer do that it called on its less subtle sibling.


Also some of the measures introduced in Weimar Germany against gypsies and disabled people laid the foundations for later, far more extreme Nazi policies.
 
This sounds like a convenient slogan but is it true? I don't really see how the Weimar Republic was the "foundation, source, and sibling" of Nazi Germany. The Nazis primarily represented those conservative forces who rejected the legitimacy of the Weimar Republic and its 'bourgeois democracy'. In what sense can it be its foundation and source?

It's true-ish - if badly expressed - 'sibling' for instance makes no sense as the Nazi state didn't exist alongside the weimar republic - there are better familial metaphors. The SPD brought in and maintained the weimar republic on the back of their violent crushing of the revolution and defeat and splitting of the working class which helped produce a 'non-normal' situation in terms of effectively managing the class of that country throughout the 20s (and in a very volatile wider context). When the bourgeois state couldn't impose their answers to the contradictions this threw up through democracy they moved to authoritarian presidential/executive rule quite simply - and still within the weimar repulic - and it was this presidential/executive who, after it had failed, decided to pass the reins to hitler. It was the weimar republic who legally gave Hitler the power to end its miserable life.

Of course, that's just the political side of it. Plenty of other things we could look at for examples of continuity. The (very) basic idea though is that capital was ok with bourgeois democracy in those conditions up to a point, past that point it preferred other options - and that it retains those options in its armoury. It doesn't mean that bourgeois democracy will always lead to fascism.
 
Yet they used the Weimar constitution to assume power and were aided in that by the leaders of the Weimar regime. They're both means of maintaining capitalism, and when bourgeois democracy could no longer do that it called on its less subtle sibling.

Well yes they partly used constitutional means to assume power and were supported by senior conservative figures in the Weimar regime. But that is very different to saying that the Weimar Republic was the foundation and source of the Nazi regime. The conservative leaders of the Weimar regime who assisted the Nazi seizure of power also didn't really view the Weimar Republic as legitimate and wanted an autocratic government whether it be Nazi or military led.

Simply saying that they are both "means of maintaining capitalism" seems a bit of a cop out. I mean surely that description applies to any capitalist government. That doesn't mean that one is the foundation,source or sibling of the other.
 
Well yes they partly used constitutional means to assume power and were supported by senior conservative figures in the Weimar regime. But that is very different to saying that the Weimar Republic was the foundation and source of the Nazi regime. The conservative leaders of the Weimar regime who assisted the Nazi seizure of power also didn't really view the Weimar Republic as legitimate and wanted an autocratic government whether it be Nazi or military led.

Simply saying that they are both "means of maintaining capitalism" seems a bit of a cop out. I mean surely that description applies to any capitalist government. That doesn't mean that one is the foundation,source or sibling of the other.

It does apply to any capitalist government. They are siblings in that they both maintain the same set of economic relations. It's those economic relations that produced the conditions in which fascism could thrive. And as froggy says, by introducing legislation against untermensch the Weimar regime helped normalise some of the stuff the Nazis would go on to do.
 
Well yes they partly used constitutional means to assume power and were supported by senior conservative figures in the Weimar regime. But that is very different to saying that the Weimar Republic was the foundation and source of the Nazi regime. The conservative leaders of the Weimar regime who assisted the Nazi seizure of power also didn't really view the Weimar Republic as legitimate and wanted an autocratic government whether it be Nazi or military led.

Simply saying that they are both "means of maintaining capitalism" seems a bit of a cop out. I mean surely that description applies to any capitalist government. That doesn't mean that one is the foundation,source or sibling of the other.

That's why i said that it was badly expressed by the original author. They used fully constitutional means by the way not partly constitutional. Yes, senior conservative figures didn't view weimar as legitimate - but the SPD did and other centre parties did (the latter maybe tactically) and so made sure it stayed in place, that no challenges could come to it from the left and they were prepared to use any means they could to ensure this - from massacres of KPD members to making them redundant to putting them off unemployment benefit. This defence of weimar was one of the key things that produced the non-normal situation that capital could not deal with through bourgeois democracy, To restore what the traditional elites and capital wanted required certain things to happen that weimar was unable to deal with and even exacerbating (destruction of all forms of w/c union and political representation, the hollowing out of any and all other independent forms of organisation, the subordination of civil-society to ends other than their own). He who wills the end wills the means.

Yes, it does apply to capital anywhere - note, capital, not capitalist governments.
 
It's true-ish - if badly expressed - 'sibling' for instance makes no sense as the Nazi state didn't exist alongside the weimar republic - there are better familial metaphors. The SPD brought in and maintained the weimar republic on the back of their violent crushing of the revolution and defeat and splitting of the working class which helped produce a 'non-normal' situation in terms of effectively managing the class of that country throughout the 20s (and in a very volatile wider context). When the bourgeois state couldn't impose their answers to the contradictions this threw up through democracy they moved to authoritarian presidential/executive rule quite simply - and still within the weimar repulic - and it was this presidential/executive who, after it had failed, decided to pass the reins to hitler. It was the weimar republic who legally gave Hitler the power to end its miserable life.

Sure, I'm not sure I still see how it can be the foundation and source beyond the trivial fact that it immediately preceded it. Whilst it is true that the Weimar Republic led by the SPD fufilled a crucial role for capital in crushing the revolution and laid the basis for Nazi policies in other areas, this didn't really do anything to legitimize the Weimar Republic or the SPD in the eyes of the elites (not sure about wider capital?). And I was under the impression that the leaders during the period "authoritarian presidential/executive rule" (at least post Bruning) also essentially viewed Weimar as illegitimate and saw any replacement as correcting an aberration rather than somehow seeing it as any sort of foundation or basis.
 
I think that you're reading foundation as being written into the basis of the new order, as support of it, rather than - as meant - that it contributed significantly towards producing the situation that brought about the new order. As noted, the author of those points put it very badly.

edit: and i would like to know where it's from.
 
This sounds like a convenient slogan but is it true? I don't really see how the Weimar Republic was the "foundation, source, and sibling" of Nazi Germany. The Nazis primarily represented those conservative forces who rejected the legitimacy of the Weimar Republic and its 'bourgeois democracy'. In what sense can it be its foundation and source?

Elections in 1930 Germany saw the break-up of a coalition government and it was replaced with a minority cabinet. Its leader, chancellor, Heinrich Brüning of the Centre Party, governed through emergency decrees from the president, Paul von Hindenburg. Governance by decree would become the new norm and paved the way for authoritarian forms of government. This led to the appointment of Hitler as leader of a government "independent from parliamentary parties" - a movement that prominent politicians and business leaders thought would "enrapture millions of people".

After Hitler was appointed Chancellor he saw to it that those in his circle were appointed to prominent positions in the new coalition government, especially in positions of power to gain control over the German police. Then, still having no majority and the coalition being in stalemate, again along came another dissolution of a coalition government accepted by Hindenburg.

To achieve full political control despite not having an absolute majority in parliament, Hitler's government brought the Ermächtigungsgesetz (Enabling Act) to a vote in the newly elected Reichstag. The act gave Hitler's cabinet full legislative powers for a period of four years and (with certain exceptions) allowed deviations from the constitution. The bill required a two-thirds majority to pass. Leaving nothing to chance, the Nazis used the provisions of the Reichstag Fire Decree to keep several Social Democratic deputies from attending; the Communists had already been banned.
Again we turn to the position of the Centre Party, the third largest party in the Reichstag, which turned out to be decisive.

After Hitler verbally promised party leader Ludwig Kaas that President von Hindenburg would retain his power of veto, Kaas announced the Centre Party would support the Enabling Act. Ultimately, the Enabling Act passed by a vote of 441–84, with all parties except the Social Democrats voting in favour. The Enabling Act, along with the Reichstag Fire Decree, transformed Hitler's government into a de facto legal dictatorship.

So there you have it. The development of governance by decree (founded, as stated by Hindenburg) became the norm and paved the way for authoritarian forms of government, which led to Hitler being appointed, who then was able to bring in more draconian powers for a lengthy period, which allowed deviations from the constitution. Then, using the powers by decree founded by Hindenburg and applied by the Centre Party (now with added intimidation) to stifle opposition, including the banning of the Communist party. This, as has already been made clear, then transformed Hitler's government into a 'de facto legal dictatorship'.

Well, this is my reading of the 'founding, source and sibling' of Nazi Germany. I'm open to other suggestions.
 
Where is this odd mix of half understood anti-anti-fascism, self-help therapy, heroisation of the glorious anti-fascist self and historical mistakes from?
Some guy who "friended" me on on facebook some years ago, based in the US. Has some interesting things posted. Not your usual UK trot, who have very little to say these days. The whole thing is awaiting translation apparently. Those are some bullet points.

Source.
 
I'm a bit sick of this facebook analysis going around that because the government is doing some repressive things it means we're going to become a fascist regime. It's not fascism, it's capitalism - and it's also dangerous because it implies because a regime is not fascist that means it's all right.
 
If anyone is interested I have the book "Death and Deliverance" by Michael Burleigh about Aktion-T4 and it has a chapter about growing support for measures such as euthanasia and sterilisation during the weimar years. If anyone is interested in borrowing it send me your address and I'll send it to you.
 
I was about to say I'd like to have a read of that but to be honest my reading list is that long at the moment (and growing all the time) that I'd probably not get the chance to look at it for about a year so I don't think it would be fair really.
 
I'm a bit sick of this facebook analysis going around that because the government is doing some repressive things it means we're going to become a fascist regime. It's not fascism, it's capitalism - and it's also dangerous because it implies because a regime is not fascist that means it's all right.

Yep, just because the jack-booted hoardes are not rounding people up yet, everything is still cool...

It seems clear to me that fascism was a the result of particular social, economic and technological circumstances which are not going to be repeated, and that fascism as it occurred in a number of European countries in 1920's 30's 40's isn't going to happen again.

This is not to say that some more-or-less totalitarian form of capitalism can't happen in future, but it won't be fascism.
 
this bit is interesting:


The purely custodial function of the asylums was underlined by decrees issued in 1931 and 1932 [before the nazis came to power] which affirmed the exclusive right of the police to commit people to asylums in the interests of public safety. Expenditure cuts were recorded from virtually every region. In Brandenburg all budgetary headings excepting drugs were cut by 20 percent; in Upper Silesia, clothing costs per patient were reduced from 60 RMs per year to 45 RMs; daily food costs per patient sank from 0.75 RMs to 0.55 RMs. In Saxony, essential building maintenance work was cut by 10%, clothing bills by 8%, equipment by 10% and food by 4%. In Pomerania, patients received ersatz coffee, margarine and a bit of bread for breaking fast; patients needing salvarsan or other drugs had to pay for them. In Westphalia the authorities cut all non-essential outgoings by up to 20%, including expenditure on heat, light, power and water. Everywhere, posts were frozen or a certain proportion of office staff made redundant.

[...]

Like Friedlander, Bratz did not quarrel with economies at a time of national emergency. He pedantically detailed how money could be saved, under various cost headings. Schizophrenics could be given a second wool blanket as the heating was turned down; thermometers in every ward would counteract any complaints about the cold with irrefutable proof of the adequacy of the temperature. Power bills could be cut by using low-wattage light bulbs; or, more simply, the patients could have an extra hour in bed on dark winter mornings. If one washed down the walls it would only be necessary to whitewash the ceilings occasionally. Uneaten food could return to the kitchen for further consideration rather than being consigned to the swillbins. Patients could wear their own clothes rather than a uniform. The cost of drugs was to be shown clearly in the books doctors used to order them from the pharmacists. Patients could replace staff in the kitchens or washhouse, and (not withstanding problems of confidentiality) as clerks or secretaries in the administration.

[...]Bratz recommended what was essentially a two-tier system. The hospitals which first admitted patients were to be centres of research and places where modern therapies were designed to achieve as rapid a rate of discharge as possible. Those who did not respond to therapy were to be spun off, in the interests of economy, into a sort of nether world where they received merely basic attention.

[...]Some would benefit from mental progress, others (whose very presence cast a long shadow over its pretensions) were to be excluded from its orbit. This was to create the psychiatric equivalent of the dividing line between a hospital and a hospice, and the conceptual framework which at the very least sought to diminish the number of "incurable" patients. Interestingly enough, psychiatrists who advocated such a division of the patient body made explicit connections between having to assign patients to the categories "curable" or "incurable" and the decisions doctors made in the case of patients who were terminally ill or experiencing extreme suffering:

"Who will be bold enough, even in cases where schizophrenic dementia has only been manifested for a few years, to pronounce the final spiritual death sentence and order transfer to an asylum for the incurable? That would truly be a difficult and portentous decision for both the patient himself and his family, like the controversial tribunals in the case of the destruction of life unworthy of life".

Colleagues of Friedlander's began to argue that caring for chronic or geriatric patients was "a luxury Germany could not afford". A financially constrained nation was in the process of "caring itself to death".
 
Yep, just because the jack-booted hoardes are not rounding people up yet, everything is still cool...

It seems clear to me that fascism was a the result of particular social, economic and technological circumstances which are not going to be repeated, and that fascism as it occurred in a number of European countries in 1920's 30's 40's isn't going to happen again.

This is not to say that some more-or-less totalitarian form of capitalism can't happen in future, but it won't be fascism.


yep and other racist/anti-semitic regimes have existed, but they haven't been fascist (south africa for example)
 
Does it matter? Whatever their intent was, it doesn't change what happened, does it?


It matters if one is trying to make a moral argument for the USSR under Stalin (not that I'm saying you are)

I don't dwell on it much, but in regards to the UK I do think nationalists can appropriate the credibility of anti-fascism and anti nazi-ism by perpetuating a myth (which seems widely adhered to) that the UK fought Germany because Hitler was a very bad man who did very bad things. We fought him because he was a direct threat to us. That's fine too of course, but what the myth crucially allows for is the considerable sympathy and respect that Hitler had over here to be swept under the carpet.
 
What sort of nationalists 'appropriate the credibility of anti-fascism and anti nazi-ism by perpetuating a myth (which seems widely adhered to) that the UK fought Germany because Hitler was a very bad man who did very bad things'?
 
It matters if one is trying to make a moral argument for the USSR under Stalin (not that I'm saying you are)

I don't dwell on it much, but in regards to the UK I do think nationalists can appropriate the credibility of anti-fascism and anti nazi-ism by perpetuating a myth (which seems widely adhered to) that the UK fought Germany because Hitler was a very bad man who did very bad things. We fought him because he was a direct threat to us. That's fine too of course, but what the myth crucially allows for is the considerable sympathy and respect that Hitler had over here to be swept under the carpet.


what sympathy and respect did hitler have over here?
 
Someone on twitter sent me this about the relationship between fascist and liberal ideology. It's called "the apprentice's sorcerer". I haven't started reading it yet beyond the first few page but it looks excellent.
 
Well there was a monarch for starters.

When I was growing up there was a dusty old alamanac on the shelves from the mid 30s (36 IIRC). Under the entry for Hitler the concluding line was that "some of his policies are considered controversial"

Foreign news coverage would have been less prominent then of course, and people would have been less aware of the warning signs. But apart from genuine leftists did Churchill not stand out a good deal as seeing the danger? It follows that a lot of people thought there was no problem at all at least, just as Il Duce was admired for the trains thing.
 
Well there was a monarch for starters.

When I was growing up there was a dusty old alamanac on the shelves from the mid 30s (36 IIRC). Under the entry for Hitler the concluding line was that "some of his policies are considered controversial"

Foreign news coverage would have been less prominent then of course, and people would have been less aware of the warning signs. But apart from genuine leftists did Churchill not stand out a good deal as seeing the danger? It follows that a lot of people thought there was no problem at all at least, just as Il Duce was admired for the trains thing.

Give up youtube - read some actual books. Where was the 'considerable sympathy and respect that Hitler had over here'? What sections of the population did it come from primarily? How did it manifest itself? What was driving it? What were its consequences. Do you like my philosophy football Up the RAF! t-shirt, it only cost £20.
 
the people who wrote that encyclopedia were only representing themselves, that wasn't the huge majority of people. that wasn't normal society, I don't believe there was ever much in the way of working class support for Hitler or Nazism in this country. what there was was often undercut quite successful by groups like the communist party with their campaigns against evictions in London. there was loads of that sort of shit in the 30s like the author of just william writing about william and his mates tormenting a jewish man by pretending to be nazis, she also wrote stories with the implication that they shouldn't play with "common" boys and wrote about "savages from India". you have to think about what the audience for that stuff was in a time when there was a huge amount of repression against the working class and what was considered to be a real threat of a revolution.

the times wrote a puff piece in the 20s for the protocols, but it was only a small proportion of the populace that read that type of thing let alone believe it. I don't believe the majority of people in the country believed that shit. I don't think that it is true. In fact when Jewish refugees came to this country they were often almost shocked at how tolerant and accepting people were of them.
 
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