EDL watch

[Captain Hurrah]

Yep.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's not even *just* the working class they hate it's the lower middle as well (think tuition fee increases, cutting the police and whatever other bonkers shite they're dreaming up) Talk about shitting on your own voter base. It's bizarre and shows they totally don't get it.

You're right, they don't, and I suspect it's something (also reflected in Labour, but to a somewhat lesser extent) to do with the MPs being drawn from such a shallow set of social strata. If (as is the case) a majority of your MPs are either hereditary upper middle class or people who've bootstrapped themselves into the upper middle class, they're going to be more likely to see the world in terms of "people like me", at least until it's too late.

 

[ViolentPanda]

thing is that the middle classes aren't that much removed from the working classes though, at least not most of the time. my parents are middle class but they still have working class friends, family members, etc.

Precarity is a factor too, although historically that's acted to turn the middle class harder against the w/c, rather than encouraging solidarity.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

Precarity is a factor too, although historically that's acted to turn the middle class harder against the w/c, rather than encouraging solidarity.

Quite, with a phenomenon called fascism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I see.

That's how I find it anyway. A sort of "hallelujah, one of 'em sees the light. Now if only the rest...".

 

[ViolentPanda]

Quite, with a phenomenon called fascism.

Yeah , but before then, too.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

That's how I find it anyway. A sort of "hallelujah, one of 'em sees the light. Now if only the rest...".

Need to read it myself, tbh. Will get a copy soon.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Need to read it myself, tbh. Will get a copy soon.

Should be turning up in charity bookshops within the next couple of months, if the usual pattern is followed (remembers an ocean of copies of "The Shock Doctrine" swamping charity shops about 6 months after it came out).

 

[frogwoman]

taffboy's ideal fascist:

"I'm here to express my grievances. I'm going on an extended political walk because I want Britain to benefit the British again. Good sir, they are attempting to supercede the law of the Crown with the practice of Shariah. They have guns which shoot rays, you might call them rayguns. It's taking place in our state, and indeed many polities have been affected, such as Iraq. You could say it was an Iraqi law"

 

[Anudder Oik]

Culturally-based, anti-working class prejudice is very much a part of left-liberalism. Unfortunately people also think they're left-wing, or at least 'progressive' socially, but are in actuality just ignorant little Thatcherite children.

In my experience some of the ones who have gone a step further and consider themselves to be revolutionary are the worst. I remember once talking to a "published" Trotskyist about some politics or other until he asked me what university I had attended. When I replied I had never been, the expression on his face became all contorted. I think a few cogs and wheels in his brain began to go into overdrive and his attitude changed instantly. His discomfort became palpable. After that he seemed to eye me with suspicion.

I'll also mention that after I left school, with NO qualifications, (due to my attitude about everything at the time), I made the move to go to a technical college, which was free (early 80's).

As a working class lad the course seemed acceptable but not so for some of my mates who gave me grief because to them I was now aspiring to become middle class. They all lived near the college and the courses were free but due to cultural prejudice they weren't having it. I was considered like a traitor to my class.

There exists in certain sectors of the working class a prejudice against going into further education. I know because I held that attitude myself for some time and it cost me a lot to rid myself of it.

 

[audiotech]

what Spurs/Jews is ultra right nationalism?

A couple of Spurs fans mentioned below are ultra right-wing nationalists. Not clear as to whether they're Jewish, or not?

Founded 18 February 2007 originally as March for the Flag by two fans of Tottenham Hotspur FC. It was renamed March for England (MFE) in November 2007. The Portsmouth-based MFE is a non-party English nationalist campaigning organisation. It is anti-immigration and anti-Islamist. MFE has close links with the English Defence League (EDL) and its activists regularly attend EDL demonstrations across the country. It also advertises EDL events on its website. MFE is run by a 12-strong committee. It claims 50-100 activists.

​

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/counter-jihad/country/UK

 

[Captain Hurrah]

There exists in certain sectors of the working class a prejudice against going into further education. I know because I held that attitude myself for some time and it cost me a lot to rid myself of it.

I know this too. Also to my cost.

 

[albionism]

In my experience some of the ones who have gone a step further and consider themselves to be revolutionary are the worst. I remember once talking to a "published" Trotskyist about some politics or other until he asked me what university I had attended. When I replied I had never been, the expression on his face became all contorted. I think a few cogs and wheels in his brain began to go into overdrive and his attitude changed instantly. His discomfort became palpable. After that he seemed to eye me with suspicion.

I had a similar experience in a pub i used to use some years ago that was near a university
campus. I was happily chatting away for an hour or so to one of the students about social justice, socialism,
etc, when she asked what i was studying at the Uni. When i told her i was a labourer on a building site,
that was it, conversation done, burgeoning friendship over. In fact, she actually physically gagged.

 

[frogwoman]

that's horrible

 

[frogwoman]

jesus christ, what the fuck is wrong with people

 

[audiotech]

Well, the above seems a far cry from when Trotskyist groups like the IMG had members working in car plants, SWP factory branches and others sensing you were a prole, swiftly engaged you to buy a paper, attend a meeting etc. Then there were those going around working class estates (myself and others I know live on council estates before anyone asks), leafleting, selling papers. Most people attending RAR events were young working class youth, same for Right to Work marches. A conversation with one dork doesn't represent the whole organisation he, or she apparently belongs to. "Trotskyist" was it? Has a whiff of trolling about it to me.

 

[frogwoman]

yeah SP are always pretty good in that regard ime.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Well, the above seems a far cry from when Trotskyist groups like the IMG had members working in car plants and others sensing you were a prole, swiftly engaged you to buy a paper, attend a meeting etc. Then there were those going around working class estates (myself and others I know live on council estates before anyone asks), leafleting, selling papers. Most people attending RAR events were young working class youth, same for Right to Work marches. A conversation with one dork doesn't represent the whole organisation he, or she apparently belongs to. "Trotskyist" was it? Has a whiff of trolling to me.

You're right "one dork doesn't represent the whole organisation he, or she apparently belongs to", but things aint what they used to be. All your examples are late 70's. My experience was mid 90's.

 

[audiotech]

You're right "one dork doesn't represent the whole organisation he, or she apparently belongs to", but things aint what they used to be. All your examples are late 70's. My experience was mid 90's.

But still the one dork. Yes?

 

[Captain Hurrah]

I had a similar experience in a pub i used to use some years ago that was near a university
campus. I was happily chatting away for an hour or so to one of the students about social justice, socialism,
etc, when she asked what i was studying at the Uni. When i told her i was a labourer on a building site,
that was it, conversation done, burgeoning friendship over. In fact, she actually physically gagged.

Jesus.

 

[Red Storm]

I think the SP are pretty good in that regard nowadays.

What were the Militant like?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

If a working class person is uneducated it's their own fault. This is your position, right? Just to be clear.

No. To be clear, it is not.

To be clear I clearly said in a post upthread that childhood as an exception to the generality of what I was on about. I was talking more specifically about improving knowledge in adulthood.

And neither was I thinking or talking about formal education FWIW.

What interests me at the moment here, for all the pixels of invective ire levelled since around yesterday PM, is that no one seems to have answered the very simple point I made in response to the 'cunt' attack on Malatesta.

That attack was based on the premise that criticising ignorance (NOT lack of formal education, NOT lack of full literacy) was comparable to criticisng benefit claimants.

In general, social mobility has decreased massively over the last generation. Access to work has decreased.
Access to knowledge has increased, though sadly aspects of that have been attacked by a government whose bizzare money cult thrives on ignorance (and I note how many of them are formally educated, how few of them are working class)

The anecdotes here of middle class revulsion at working class people without a degree or similar are a fine example of ignorance being ever present in all classes. Racist ignorance pervades all classes.

I expect the least racist class overall is the working class, especially the urban working class.

I would go along with Orwell in saying that the working class is ultimately the best hope against fascism. Butchers will note that Starkey is forever referencing that quote.

 

[Das Uberdog]

IT DOESN'T MATTER

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

'Cardiff Lad' - a close friend of Jeff 'Stabby' Marsh, surrenders. It's verbose even by my standards but in short he has taken a conspiracy analysis that EDL is controlled opposition, running interference by being too nice to people of colour, LGBT etc. And being fronted by a more or less total fool.

http://twitpic.com/aamu0b

 

[The39thStep]

Well, the above seems a far cry from when Trotskyist groups like the IMG had members working in car plants, SWP factory branches and others sensing you were a prole, swiftly engaged you to buy a paper, attend a meeting etc. Then there were those going around working class estates (myself and others I know live on council estates before anyone asks), leafleting, selling papers. Most people attending RAR events were young working class youth, same for Right to Work marches. A conversation with one dork doesn't represent the whole organisation he, or she apparently belongs to. "Trotskyist" was it? Has a whiff of trolling about it to me.

Most of the IMG were students who were told to get a manual job in their turn to the class period. You couldn't move for a Brit telecom engineer round our way who prattling on about the transitional programme or Nicaragua if you reported a fault on your telephone line.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

IT DOESN'T MATTER

A lot of people here seem to think so though.

Putting words in peoples mouths to have a go at them matters.

Groundlessly calling people 'cunt' matters.

Total failure to address a defence of that person while keeping up other well rehearsed invective doesn't matter unless someone is perhaps driven by a 2 faced sense of superiority and knowing best when others should "shut up".

 

[Captain Hurrah]

@ 39.

 

[albionism]

I think the SP are pretty good in that regard nowadays.

What were the Militant like?

I spent a short amount of time with Militant in the late 80's
and everyone i met and worked with were pretty much ok
and there seemed to be more working class folk in Militant
than in many of the other Socialist groups i encountered at
the time.

 

[Das Uberdog]

A lot of people here seem to think so though.

Putting words in peoples mouths to have a go at them matters.

Groundlessly calling people 'cunt' matters.

Total failure to address a defence of that person while keeping up other well rehearsed invective doesn't matter unless someone is perhaps driven by a 2 faced sense of superiority and knowing best when others should "shut up".

you've been wound up and strung out here, where the reaction seriously shouldn't have gone beyond 'oh it's not your cup of tea? oh well'... now it's just clogging up thread. you really shouldn't feel the need to justify yourself so much to the comedy afficionados of EDL Watch, if you like what you're doing just keep doing it and if you want a review set up a different thread

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

you've been wound up and strung out here, where the reaction seriously shouldn't have gone beyond 'oh it's not your cup of tea? oh well'... now it's just clogging up thread. you really shouldn't feel the need to justify yourself so much to the comedy afficionados of EDL Watch, if you like what you're doing just keep doing it and if you want a review set up a different thread

The latest round has nothing to do with what you refer to, at least not till Butchers dragged it up again in a sense that didn't even really prop up his point , and things moved on quite quickly to broader (and interesting). Obviously as the person who started this odyssey of a thread you have an interest in keeping it relevant, but 300 + pages are bound to spawn more than a few tangents.

'Oh well it's not your cup of tea' is a good paraphrase of what I said a few times, but the attacks still came, it's other people that have struggled to let it lie. Personal attacks and snide one upmanship are not unique to this thread, I do believe they should be called out and find them depressing from people who are clearly capable of better.