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The39thStep said:
Most of the IMG were students who were told to get a manual job in their turn to the class period. You couldn't move for a Brit telecom engineer round our way who prattling on about the transitional programme or Nicaragua if you reported a fault on your telephone line.
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You could afford a phone? Eeeee, when I were a youngster we couldn't even afford a piece of string, let alone two empty tins to string together!
 
audiotech said:
Well, the above seems a far cry from when Trotskyist groups like the IMG had members working in car plants, SWP factory branches and others sensing you were a prole, swiftly engaged you to buy a paper, attend a meeting etc. Then there were those going around working class estates (myself and others I know live on council estates before anyone asks), leafleting, selling papers. Most people attending RAR events were young working class youth, same for Right to Work marches. A conversation with one dork doesn't represent the whole organisation he, or she apparently belongs to. "Trotskyist" was it? Has a whiff of trolling about it to me.
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In my experience (mostly early 1980s), the far-left groups were not full of middle class people who were lying in wait to patronise or otherwise do down members of the working class. If anything, there was a tendency to revere and idealise working class people, especially youth. It was when people inevitably failed to live up to the ideal that some hostility could come peeping through, particularly from the more naive or politically weak kind of middle class activist. Even then, though, there were others who were not so naive and recognised their own relative privileges. Of course, the (mostly) middle class leaders at all levels of these kind of groups do tend to use people and then discard them, but it was often the middle class members who ended up more fucked up by the experience. Working class members had usually remained closer to their own backgrounds and could more easily give the great leaders the finger. Middle class activists were more likely to feel isolated when disillusion set in and were often less emotionally stable.

On the wider point being made higher up in the thread, I'd say that the main problem-that working class people are at a permanent disadvantage educationally-is only going to get worse while present trends continue. Until all schools strive towards the same educational standards and levels of discipline that private and other elite schools enjoy, then the gulf can only widen. And, of course, the fact that this isn't going to happen has obvious political implications.
 
We can, however, take comfort from the fact that the educational advantages of the middle classes are partly diluted by all social classes being equally susceptible the wall-to-wall drivel inflicted by a media-saturated society. Lots of middle class people now have calf tattoos, for instance, and what better indication could there be that a higher standard of education is no guarantee against bad taste, crassness and stupidity?
 
LLETSA said:
We can, however, take comfort from the fact that the educational advantages of the middle classes are partly diluted by all social classes being equally susceptible the wall-to-wall drivel inflicted by a media-saturated society. Lots of middle class people now have calf tattoos, for instance, and what better indication could there be that a higher standard of education is no guarantee against bad taste, crassness and stupidity?
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Same aspirational pissing that a certain element of the MC has always been afflicted by. Only now the object of their lust is celebrity culture rather than horse-riding toffs.

In my entirely unacademic view the MC doesn't exist. Instead, we have a group of who have lucked out enough in life to find themselves around the median on a number of measures - one set of which see themselves as working people who have done alright, and identify more with the WC than the aristos - and the other set which looks down on the rest of society and would rather put their nadgers in a toasted-sandwich-maker than think of themselves as essentially working class but lucky. All of these people are selling their labour for others to profit from it, and the split depends solely on perceptions and the way they self-identify.

I've wondered at times about who the idea of a 'middle class' serves. It distances a huge swathe of people from 'issues that affect the working class'. It allows these people to see these issues as not affecting them, nothing to do with them, not their fight - despite the fact that they're no more than 3 pay-cheques away from being right on the end of it.

Probably a load of bollocks, and I expect butchersapron will tell me so shortly.
 
there's definitely a group which could be termed the middle class, the conditions of life of much of the m/c are becoming more and more "working class" though (or the perception is that they're becoming this way anyway). there's still huge advantages in terms of economics, social capital etc though. and different people are responding to these processes in different ways.
 
frogwoman said:
there's definitely a group which could be termed the middle class, the conditions of life of much of the m/c are becoming more and more "working class" though (or the perception is that they're becoming this way anyway). there's still huge advantages in terms of economics, social capital etc though. and different people are responding to these processes in different ways.
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You can define the group yes, but I'm not sure what purpose it serves. A lot of previously "middle-class" people end up in poverty after redundancy, or a psychotic episode, or a drink/substance problem, or a messy divorce, or etc. They don't have the security of capital/means of production, and so can very quickly find themselves dumped to the bottom of the food-chain. But by having this label of middle-class, that realisation doesn't come until after the event.

It seems to me that if those millions of people understood that, then perhaps 'working class issues' would become the majority's issues.
 
The full horror carried out by the global banking crime syndicate pushes many 'middle class' interests much closer still to those who consciously identify as working class. Many of the working class of the 'developed' world are pushed to virtual or actual destitution in turn. In absolute terms theirs is the worst condition, but in raw financial terms the middle class have more to lose (be robbed of) Too many of them backed the wrong horse. I've yet to see a single Mea Culpa from the cultist mugs, not only in following such a fatuous creed but also in preaching it and denouncing sceptics with revolting piety.

Now their 'masters of the universe' have made off with all the loot following the 'end of history' but I have yet to see a proper apology from the cheerleaders, I dare say they lack the awareness and decency to say sorry.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
The full horror carried out by the global banking crime syndicate pushes many 'middle class' interests much closer still to those who consciously identify as working class. Many of the working class of the 'developed' world are pushed to virtual or actual destitution in turn. In absolute terms theirs is the worst condition, but in raw financial terms the middle class have more to lose (be robbed of) Too many of them backed the wrong horse. I've yet to see a single Mea Culpa from the cultist mugs, not only in following such a fatuous creed but also in preaching it and denouncing sceptics with revolting piety.

Now their 'masters of the universe' have made off with all the loot following the 'end of history' but I have yet to see a proper apology from the cheerleaders, I dare say they lack the awareness and decency to say sorry.
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You don't always have to type in sloganese you know.

Historically the newly pauperised m/c (those "with more to lose") have been as likely to turn to the far right as to the labour movement, if not more so. Often because they viewed the working class as an uneducated, ignorant rabble, and blamed that ignorance on on personal character flaws. Like you do.
 
SpineyNorman said:
You don't always have to type in sloganese you know.

Historically the newly pauperised m/c (those "with more to lose") have been as likely to turn to the far right as to the labour movement, if not more so. Often because they viewed the working class as an uneducated, ignorant rabble, and blamed that ignorance on on personal character flaws. Like you do.
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the left and the 'labour movement' are somewhat different things. one can be attracted or a member to the left without actually ever coming into contact with members of the working class, and there has always been a current which espouses a left wing discourse which is patronising and finds the proletariat distasteful in reality. the goal of their socialism is the doing away with the ignorant masses, and the creation of a 'new man', molded in a distinctly middle class image.
in the early 1920s the intellectuals of the ILP fought tooth and nail to impose distinctly 'socialist' policies upon the Labour party, in the face of opposition from conservative trades unionists. Many despaired of the ignorance of the uneducated mob and the obstacles which democracy, whether within the labour party or in parliamentary elections put in the way of their plans for social renewal. In the face of unparralleled capitalist crisis, there was simply not enough time for winning the ignorant masses over. What was needed was Action! and so these earnest young educated left wingers abandoned labour and joined with a firebrand labour party MP in a breakaway party of action.
 
barney_pig said:
the left and the 'labour movement' are somewhat different things. one can be attracted or a member to the left without actually ever coming into contact with members of the working class, and there has always been a current which espouses a left wing discourse which is patronising and finds the proletariat distasteful in reality. the goal of their socialism is the doing away with the ignorant masses, and the creation of a 'new man', molded in a distinctly middle class image.
in the early 1920s the intellectuals of the ILP fought tooth and nail to impose distinctly 'socialist' policies upon the Labour party, in the face of opposition from conservative trades unionists. Many despaired of the ignorance of the uneducated mob and the obstacles which democracy, whether within the labour party or in parliamentary elections put in the way of their plans for social renewal. In the face of unparralleled capitalist crisis, there was simply not enough time for winning the ignorant masses over. What was needed was Action! and so these earnest young educated left wingers abandoned labour and joined with a firebrand labour party MP in a breakaway party of action.
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i would have thought that molding 'the new man' in a distinctly middle class image would prove something of a cul-de-sac as this 'new man' would be nothing more than a throwback to the bad auld days.
 
completely off topic, but I have only about 4 followers on twitter, until the other day when

darren redstar,
You have a new follower on Twitter
ibis



Tim Starkey
@TimLabour
Labour Candidate for Police and Crime Commissioner in the Thames Valley. Barrister and criminal justice expert tackling crime and social injustice.

Following: 770 · Followers: 112

WTF
 
SpineyNorman said:
You don't always have to type in sloganese you know.

Historically the newly pauperised m/c (those "with more to lose") have been as likely to turn to the far right as to the labour movement, if not more so. Often because they viewed the working class as an uneducated, ignorant rabble, and blamed that ignorance on on personal character flaws. Like you do.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to rise to that from someone who groundlessly calls people "cunt" without once addressing the reasons why it was not the case.

Here's how much I own the means of production: Zero.

Here's how I make any money : Selling my labour.

The balance between what might be called working and middle class people I know is tilted toward the former, it's a very heavy tilt in pure economic terms (how I see it)

I don't see a significant in levels of ignorance or character flaws between them.

I answered your charge plainly and with explanation upthread. You didn't speak to it just as you haven't spoken to plenty else I have said. That's a key element I've noticed in cyber cowards - always happy to dish out the questions, never half as arsed to deal with the responses, doesn't suit the agenda maybe. Not as arsed about answering questions, such as the one I put to you repeatedly, directly related to your arrogant and wrong headed insult against another poster.

At least Butchers can be funny and useful and perceptive things, and at least his challenges are often thought provoking.

Why do you have to keep returning to baseless personal attacks like a dog to a bone? The thread has moved on hopefully.

Why do you put words in people's mouths?

What good do you think it does?

Is it a technique you apply to such political efforts away from here as you are engaged in?

Do you know if it works to convince anyone other than yourself?
 
Nobody's putting words in anyone's mouths. You haven't given anything like a coherent case for why it's "not the case" - just a load of long winded waffle.

You just have deep seated prejudices that you don't even notice. I don't want to convince you of anything at all - you're as much my enemy as the subject of this thread.

Cunt.
 
barney_pig said:
the left and the 'labour movement' are somewhat different things. one can be attracted or a member to the left without actually ever coming into contact with members of the working class, and there has always been a current which espouses a left wing discourse which is patronising and finds the proletariat distasteful in reality. the goal of their socialism is the doing away with the ignorant masses, and the creation of a 'new man', molded in a distinctly middle class image.
in the early 1920s the intellectuals of the ILP fought tooth and nail to impose distinctly 'socialist' policies upon the Labour party, in the face of opposition from conservative trades unionists. Many despaired of the ignorance of the uneducated mob and the obstacles which democracy, whether within the labour party or in parliamentary elections put in the way of their plans for social renewal. In the face of unparralleled capitalist crisis, there was simply not enough time for winning the ignorant masses over. What was needed was Action! and so these earnest young educated left wingers abandoned labour and joined with a firebrand labour party MP in a breakaway party of action.
Click to expand...


There's a lot to that post, but what you are missing with the rhetorical trick at the end (and indeed throughout) is any mention of nationalism or indeed the international context of the time.

It is no secret that fascism had many many admirers in the middle and upper class, well it's kind of dirty secret in many ways. Churchill was one of the only tories to see Hitler as a threat.

I came across a 1936 Encylopedia when I was young. The short biog on Hitler concluded that some of his policies were "seen as controversial".


In contrast, we know how many of the working class (and possibly middle too) gave or risked their lives in Spain (some Irish ended up on the wrong side backing who they saw as their Catholic bretheren - the partial if not whole roots of Fine Gael - the "blueshirts")


To be honest though, I think first time around : Il Duce, Franco, Hitler, Mosely et al: Did the dupes and droolers have more of an excuse without the lessons of history to draw on?

I quickly found that saying "don't vote BNP, they're fascist" was pretty pointless because so many people didn't really know what "fascist" was anyway.

That's ignorance, and you don't need to be formally educated or middle class to be void of it. Many ignorant people are both.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
I'm not going to rise to that from someone who groundlessly calls people "cunt" without once addressing the reasons why it was not the case.
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Not groundless at all. The cunt quite explicitly stated that he believed ignorance to be a result of individual character flaws. Therefore he's a cunt. I stand by my claim that he's a cunt. Because he's a cunt.

taffboy gwyrdd said:
[pointless crap snipped]The balance between what might be called working and middle class people I know is tilted toward the former, it's a very heavy tilt in pure economic terms (how I see it)
Click to expand...

What does that even mean? The balance of power is in favour of the working class? You're mental.

taffboy gwyrdd said:
I don't see a significant in levels of ignorance or character flaws between them
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That's not even a sentence. You're clearly too lazy to learn to write properly etc.

taffboy gwyrdd said:
I answered your charge plainly and with explanation upthread. You didn't speak to it just as you haven't spoken to plenty else I have said. That's a key element I've noticed in cyber cowards - always happy to dish out the questions, never half as arsed to deal with the responses, doesn't suit the agenda maybe. Not as arsed about answering questions, such as the one I put to you repeatedly, directly related to your arrogant and wrong headed insult against another poster.
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More lunacy. What charge? When did urban become a court?

taffboy gwyrdd said:
Why do you have to keep returning to baseless personal attacks like a dog to a bone? The thread has moved on hopefully.
Click to expand...

Because they're not baseless personal attacks. Exposing your prejudice is the only decent thing to come out of this thread anyway.

taffboy gwyrdd said:
Why do you put words in people's mouths
Click to expand...

I don't. I merely expose the thought processes behind the nonsense you type.

taffboy gwyrdd said:
What good do you think it does?
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This a tiny corner of the internet. Very little we do on here has any effect whatsoever, good or bad.

taffboy gwyrdd said:
Is it a technique you apply to such political efforts away from here as you are engaged in?
Click to expand...

Yes. I call it as I see it - most people respect that.

taffboy gwyrdd said:
Do you know if it works to convince anyone other than yourself?
Click to expand...

I do as it happens. I've found that honestly explaining how I see things is the only way to convince anyone of anything. The alternative is to look like, and be, a lying hypocrite.

I don't want to win you over to anything by the way, I think you're a complete and utter liability.
 
Spiney Norman

Your "cunt" point about malatesta is poorly defended again, almost as poor as your lack of attempt to address my challenge to it.

But I now have a better understanding of why.

"What does that even mean? The balance of power is in favour of the working class? You're mental."
Now. Read what I said again. Why would the balance of economic power be towards the working class. Did the more obvious and obvious sense-in-context "balance of numbers" not occur to you? Or are you so fixated on seeing and finding something to slag someone off for. Well, we've seen your form in that regard.

So you had to stick another word in, get it wrong, assume you were write and use a dubious term to insult me. If you put up stupid strawmen so easily it's a waste of time trying to converse. So I genuinely haven't read any more of your arrogant, deluded uncomprehending stuff since, and thus won't respond to what ever ill founded nonsense it may contain. I suggest we both leave it there.
 
barney_pig said:
completely off topic, but I have only about 4 followers on twitter, until the other day when

darren redstar,
You have a new follower on Twitter
ibis



Tim Starkey
@TimLabour
Labour Candidate for Police and Crime Commissioner in the Thames Valley. Barrister and criminal justice expert tackling crime and social injustice.

Following: 770 · Followers: 112

WTF
Click to expand...

Are you Darren Redstar? I wondered what happened to you!
 
YimStarkey looks like someone who has been hit in the face with a shovel, someone should advise him against smiling
 
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