EDL watch
- Thread starter Das Uberdog
- Start date
john x
Well-Known Member
You do know, don't you that a number of senior EDL figures have been caught dismissing the mission statement as 'just for show'?
john x
keybored
Well done. You remember cat good.
Not to mention gay rights and the plight of Israel.
Tbh I think it's already heading to that point, I logged into a facebook account a few days ago that I was using to follow some of the local ones that I haven't checked on in ages, and a pretty large proportion of them have seemingly given it up. All them EDL that had a semblence of sanity have long since fucked off, leaving only the hardcore cranks.
john x
Well-Known Member
It finished after Tower Hamlets last year.
Their marches have never been about 'issues' but about 'taking ground' in the football sense. 'Whose Streets? Are Streets!' and 'We'll march where we want!' were their battle cries. Tower Hamlets was all about taking the fight to the heartland of the enemy (Britain's Pakistani and Bangladeshi populations). Not only did they never set foot in the borough but those who got anywhere near were chased away by young Asian lads.
That day also saw Lennon drop the 'Muslim extremists' pretence and threatened the entire Muslim community of Britain.
Since then they have just become figures of fun.
john x
I'd say before that even, Bradford in particular. Remember when they were calling it the big one? saying how they'll get tens of thousands there? They ended up being chased out of town i believe, and barely 2,000 of them turned up in the first place. That was a wake up call for a lot of 'em.
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
I believe that that perennial question - "football or muggy bonehead" - is currently being answered by shuffling feet, stage right.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
all of the above notwithstanding, will be interesting to see how the James Larkin march goes in Liverpool this Saturday. NWI, CxF + all the rest are gearing up for a repeat of their 'victory' from the Irish Republican march in February, though this time it seems that 'Friends of Ireland' are determined not to back down on the march route like then.
john x
Well-Known Member
The far-right will be greatly outnumbered (as they were the last time) so unless the police go in heavy against the trades union march or try to use a banning order, they have no chance. They also claim to have 'relatives of IRA victims' marching with them which I seriously doubt after they disrespected Tim Parry and Jonathan Ball by using their names and images on one of their shitty posters!
john x
Corax
Luke 5:16
Depends who you're talking to IMO.
I know some people who aren't really interested in politics either way, but some of the EDL's rhetoric has made them sympathise a bit. I can point out the flaws in what they claim, and do, but sometimes this doesn't have a huge effect on its own - as like I said, they have very little interest in politics, and don't have the knowledge to know if I'm telling them the truth or if the fash are. It's just two opposing and contradictory statements from their PoV.
But if I take the piss out of them a bit as well, then I can get them laughing along with me - laughing at the EDL. If you can get someone genuinely laughing at a particular group, then that's going to make them less likely to identify with that group. People don't like to identify with an object of ridicule.
You can then start working on the real stuff with them.
Only works/appropriate with a certain kind of 'floating voter', but ridicule can be an effective tool if used right IMO.
ETA: In the context of the running discussion though, I agree that ridiculing their literacy is more likely to just make people think you a bit of a cunt.
disco_dave_2000
la la lapland
Interesting article in The Irish Times today, about the march and proposed counter by the fash;
http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/gen...07/17/return-of-anti-irish-racism-in-britain/
In your example it's fine, even useful corax.
Unfortunately the same cannot be said of cuntboy grithiths
Unfortunately the same cannot be said of cuntboy grithiths
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
By a poster from here as well.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Red Storm
M14
I find it a bit of a stretch to say "scratch beneath the surface of English society anti-Irish prejudice still lurks" because of the NWI
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
We Jews have our genitals cut for Yahweh. It's a cultural rite inherent to Judaism and Islam that's a hangover from the days when it actually made sense, in terms of personal hygiene and the climate where both religions originated, to carry out. It's unsavoury insofar as the person being circumcised doesn't get a choice about being mutilated, but it's a practice that pre-existed either faith, so neither can be "blamed" for it.
With Female Genital Mutilation, there's not even any religious injunction to that, like their is for circumcision, just cultural practices from a fairly small number of states who were chopping off womens' clits before Mohammed's grandfather was a twinkle in his great-grandfather's eye.
As for Halal and Kosher slaughter, , it's no different (except for the muttering of the beardies) to what everybody did before the age of large-scale "meat production", or even (if you were a country butcher) what some people were still doing prior to BSE (which caused a lot of expensive, bureaucratic and minimally necessary changes to food standards laws). In fact there's an argument to be made that slaughter standards per se would be better if it hadn't have been for the bureaucratic push that led to most small abattoirs closing down.
Is he? I follow him on twitter. Shocking yellow coat Brian
He has mentioned here actually iirc, didn't realise he posted
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yes, that is a very poor jacket.
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
Corax
Luke 5:16
Meth Lab didn't want it known so widely. People should have respected his privacy better IMO.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Thought the article was pretty good and perhaps it will even get people who are otherwise not bothered to get up and go on the march.
As for the shit sprouted in that NWI poster shown in the article, "take take take, etc...", it's enough to make your blood boil.
If the scum have any sense they will stay well away on saturday as what they are saying is pure provocation and won't make them very popular on the day, and that's putting it politely, the cunts.
john x
Well-Known Member
Yes, the article does overplay the NWI somewhat.I find it a bit of a stretch to say "scratch beneath the surface of English society anti-Irish prejudice still lurks" because of the NWI
While the threat of violence should never be ignored, these demos are mainly the work of NF mayoral candidate Peter Tierney and, sacked from the army for burgling houses, Paul Cxf Walsh and a few of his toy soldiers. They are backed up by NWI's John 'Snowy' Shaw and that little creep Shane Calvert (Diddyman) and his loyalist mates in the Scottish Defence League. Joining them are a handful of social misfits and ex-NF and BNP associates who are just happy to be with others of the same mind, who they can giggle and exchange racist jokes with and not be always looking over their shoulders.
Politically it is hard to see them posing any kind of threat as they are virtually incapable of tying their own shoes. They also have no critical analysis of anything they do. They did a rooftop protest somewhere in the NW and Paul Walsh claimed that they had negotiated a live TV interview with the BBC and ITV in return for coming down. Then it was one live radio interview, then a recorded interview and in the end it was nothing. They still claim this 'interview' as 'are voices are gettin herd' and no amount of telling them that no interview was ever broadcast will change their minds. On top of all that Walsh was arrested as soon as he came down from the roof. These people will never interface orally with the media as they are genuinely incapable of talking in coherent sentences. 'Fookin' peedoes raping are white children' is about the extent of it.
So let's not worry too much about them. They are a joke. Let them stand on town hall roofs in the cold with their union flags upside down. While they claim embarrassing defeats as great victories they are going nowhere.
john x
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
The thing is, for them, the last time round in Liverpool where they got a march stopped, was seen by them as a victory, therefore, they will be looking to milk that and therefore active security will be necessary for saturday because they are more likely to be lurking in a carpark trying to damage mini vans or pick off stragglers than standing on a roof.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Ok. Sorry for my part in the merry go round on patriot literacy levels.
FW - You have constantly skated over points I have made in my defence against your specific allegations, but life's too short for both of us.
Butchers, likewise and your claim that I "hate people" is more crystal ball sillyness. Your ever present grouchiness makes me wonder if it is projection.
Be that as it may, life is again too short. I respect you both, broadly agree with you and so onwards...
Some trend observations regarding EDL and far right, no special order.
Someone elsewhere thought the big drop in numbers was down to lack of politics (backing up something I said earlier that wasn't part of the merry go round )
Certainly something has changed a great deal in the last 12+ months, I cite the turning point as the Blackburn demo - not just the Infidel split but Lennon's behaviour - headbutting a guy more or less mid speech is bizarre enough, but the wrong guy?
If you can be arsed to look through that demo again on Youtube you can see that it is mayhem and he lost the crowd. "English Defence League, English Defence League"- he tries to pull them back in line, but can't.
Down recent months I have spotted an increasing trend for muslim haters to specify, often off the bat, that they are NOT EDL. I used to call them "Gethsemane Division", thinking they were being distractionary, but really wonder now...
In fact, I think the brand has become toxic even to those who one might expect to be their natural supporters. The vapid hate has not gone away. There are a plethora of sites, blogs, pages that blurt out the same stuff. But it no longer to coalesces around the EDL.
Note that March For England, broader and older, got much bigger turnout than most EDL recently, even if it was an "Arse On Plate" special thanks to the good folk of Brighton.
Briefly on politics: Someone cited the Mission Statement earlier, it and issues were dealt with appropriate deftness from Butchers, FW and others. As an AR person I find the Halal froth to be especially vapid. People who don't like halal killing should certainly be veg, probably vegan because plenty of comparable mistreatment goes on in life and death for the animals concerned.
The first line proper of the Mission Statement proclaims the EDL are a "human rights organisation". This is, of course, as valid as the "largest protest movement in the world" claim. They often struggle to be the largest protest movement at their own protests.
The BFP claim they will repeal the HR act. Are they going to replace it with something more liberal to please the Amnesty like liberalness of their EDL colleagues? The promise to end benefits for migrants seems to suggest not.
All the usual stuff: The peado whinge, the hypocritical moans on social conservatism, the paranoia, the decontextualising of Koran elements: It's all blown away like feathers, repeatedly. It's pretty dull really and I admire the thankless patience of those who continue to address it (I sometimes do)
On paedos though: Ask an EDLer if they want to live in a country that will execute muslim paedophiles. If they say yes, tell them to move to Iran.
On human rights: Lennon said on one Newsnight that "only muslims have human rights in this country". That is the level we are talking about here, from their leader. It's a new low in the standard of political discourse and I wonder at the point in bothering.
Frogwoman and many others may have lots of pertinent things to say about fascism and populist bigotry etc. but none of it washes with the vast majority of EDLers or similar. They don't give a shit. They want to hate.
Some more "intellectual" ones will hide behind terms like "cultural nationalism" and "counter jihad" but when they go on demos with the NF (Newcastle) or the EDL invite the BNP along (Bristol) it all goes out the water again.
The political analysis is only useful for more neutral people (rather than the converted or the committed haters). Generally it works in fact.
The demonstrated fact that muslims are prouder citizens of the UK than non muslims I think feeds through to attitudes towards them regardless of hate bilge in the press.
"live and let live" remains a dominant attitude.
So where next for far right in this country? elements differ from the European models (east and west)
The BNP are not dead in the water, but 2014 could see them that way and they are certainly not very well.
ED have never really caught on. BFP are a rump, their marriage to EDL ought to be something they now regret, at least in private.
Infidel, NF et al are pretty tiny and mad.
The far right, though having some potential decent support is fractured and discredited.
So where does that support go? It's pretty obvious:
An increasing amount put faith, perhaps begrudgingly, in UKIP. Any ambitious racist would do just that, infiltrate essentially and influence from within.
UKIP may have money, seats and support but it doesn't have great local/regional structure, certainly not everywhere. It would actually be quite easy to drag it right. I suspect it lacks committed savvy anti fascists, though it is not wholly out the question, there would be very few.
I would never support UKIP of course, but there prime raison detre is respectable, it has a market/niche and serves a purpose. The fact that they are neoliberal fools who will trade one slavery for another is neither here nor there insofar as the likes of me would not persuade them toward a less cult like vision.
UKIP are partly a product of the lefts failure to be as euroskeptic as it might be, they have often been drawn in by the idea that Europe is broadly to the left of the UK - even that is dubious really and certainly The Lisbon treaty and ECB ambition gives the lie to any hope for the EU being the centrist, subsidiartiy entity it once promised to be.
Labour tend to be pro EU, the small group of leftists who aint are drowned out.
SNP and Plaid are, for obvious reasons (again risking the trade of one "slavery" for another, though I don't know how Leanne Wood stands on all this)
The Greens are shamefully soft on the EU as a whole, though their ideas for reform are not given full credence.
No2EU/TUSC & RESPECT yet need to build for a chance of any of their opinions being heard.
Thus a credible anti EU voice only exists in UKIP and they are kicking at an open goal.
They are even less hypocritical on migration, for any party can try and sound tough but most migration is from the EU, so actually reducing it is something that can't be done without either leaving or major renegotiation (what Cameron hints at, but bollocks to him for now)
I suspect many in UKIP are of demographic and background that do not appreciate the risk of deliberate far right infiltration, and wouldn't know how to face it down if they did. I have tried raising this a few times on their pages, respectfully. I can't recall any response.
If that risk manifests and they fail to deal with it, it might well be the thing to do for anti fascists to specifically start calling UKIP out - not the whole lot of them for racism - but the generality for not dealing with the far right drifters coming in from the cold. It could even be a legitimate prime focus. What's the point in slagging off a rabble of nutters on the fringes if the party with the 2nd highest Euro vote is being used to push that agenda with a far more respectable face?
We must focus on drumming out Brons and Griffin for sure, there will be debate aplenty about how that is done in coming months and years.
But for now there is no cogent directioned force to speak of on the far right in my estimation, this is in contrast to the potential. I don't see a new party/organisation in the near future - the collapse of the EDL (and partly BNP) have not been fully digested.
Keep eyes on UKIP then, who are highly vulnerable to critique on this issue.
Thoughts appreciated. This was all a bit OTTOTH and not edited, so apologies if it is garbled. But I wanted to help move things on given my part in sometimes holding things back.
FW - You have constantly skated over points I have made in my defence against your specific allegations, but life's too short for both of us.
Butchers, likewise and your claim that I "hate people" is more crystal ball sillyness. Your ever present grouchiness makes me wonder if it is projection.
Be that as it may, life is again too short. I respect you both, broadly agree with you and so onwards...
Some trend observations regarding EDL and far right, no special order.
Someone elsewhere thought the big drop in numbers was down to lack of politics (backing up something I said earlier that wasn't part of the merry go round )
Certainly something has changed a great deal in the last 12+ months, I cite the turning point as the Blackburn demo - not just the Infidel split but Lennon's behaviour - headbutting a guy more or less mid speech is bizarre enough, but the wrong guy?
If you can be arsed to look through that demo again on Youtube you can see that it is mayhem and he lost the crowd. "English Defence League, English Defence League"- he tries to pull them back in line, but can't.
Down recent months I have spotted an increasing trend for muslim haters to specify, often off the bat, that they are NOT EDL. I used to call them "Gethsemane Division", thinking they were being distractionary, but really wonder now...
In fact, I think the brand has become toxic even to those who one might expect to be their natural supporters. The vapid hate has not gone away. There are a plethora of sites, blogs, pages that blurt out the same stuff. But it no longer to coalesces around the EDL.
Note that March For England, broader and older, got much bigger turnout than most EDL recently, even if it was an "Arse On Plate" special thanks to the good folk of Brighton.
Briefly on politics: Someone cited the Mission Statement earlier, it and issues were dealt with appropriate deftness from Butchers, FW and others. As an AR person I find the Halal froth to be especially vapid. People who don't like halal killing should certainly be veg, probably vegan because plenty of comparable mistreatment goes on in life and death for the animals concerned.
The first line proper of the Mission Statement proclaims the EDL are a "human rights organisation". This is, of course, as valid as the "largest protest movement in the world" claim. They often struggle to be the largest protest movement at their own protests.
The BFP claim they will repeal the HR act. Are they going to replace it with something more liberal to please the Amnesty like liberalness of their EDL colleagues? The promise to end benefits for migrants seems to suggest not.
All the usual stuff: The peado whinge, the hypocritical moans on social conservatism, the paranoia, the decontextualising of Koran elements: It's all blown away like feathers, repeatedly. It's pretty dull really and I admire the thankless patience of those who continue to address it (I sometimes do)
On paedos though: Ask an EDLer if they want to live in a country that will execute muslim paedophiles. If they say yes, tell them to move to Iran.
On human rights: Lennon said on one Newsnight that "only muslims have human rights in this country". That is the level we are talking about here, from their leader. It's a new low in the standard of political discourse and I wonder at the point in bothering.
Frogwoman and many others may have lots of pertinent things to say about fascism and populist bigotry etc. but none of it washes with the vast majority of EDLers or similar. They don't give a shit. They want to hate.
Some more "intellectual" ones will hide behind terms like "cultural nationalism" and "counter jihad" but when they go on demos with the NF (Newcastle) or the EDL invite the BNP along (Bristol) it all goes out the water again.
The political analysis is only useful for more neutral people (rather than the converted or the committed haters). Generally it works in fact.
The demonstrated fact that muslims are prouder citizens of the UK than non muslims I think feeds through to attitudes towards them regardless of hate bilge in the press.
"live and let live" remains a dominant attitude.
So where next for far right in this country? elements differ from the European models (east and west)
The BNP are not dead in the water, but 2014 could see them that way and they are certainly not very well.
ED have never really caught on. BFP are a rump, their marriage to EDL ought to be something they now regret, at least in private.
Infidel, NF et al are pretty tiny and mad.
The far right, though having some potential decent support is fractured and discredited.
So where does that support go? It's pretty obvious:
An increasing amount put faith, perhaps begrudgingly, in UKIP. Any ambitious racist would do just that, infiltrate essentially and influence from within.
UKIP may have money, seats and support but it doesn't have great local/regional structure, certainly not everywhere. It would actually be quite easy to drag it right. I suspect it lacks committed savvy anti fascists, though it is not wholly out the question, there would be very few.
I would never support UKIP of course, but there prime raison detre is respectable, it has a market/niche and serves a purpose. The fact that they are neoliberal fools who will trade one slavery for another is neither here nor there insofar as the likes of me would not persuade them toward a less cult like vision.
UKIP are partly a product of the lefts failure to be as euroskeptic as it might be, they have often been drawn in by the idea that Europe is broadly to the left of the UK - even that is dubious really and certainly The Lisbon treaty and ECB ambition gives the lie to any hope for the EU being the centrist, subsidiartiy entity it once promised to be.
Labour tend to be pro EU, the small group of leftists who aint are drowned out.
SNP and Plaid are, for obvious reasons (again risking the trade of one "slavery" for another, though I don't know how Leanne Wood stands on all this)
The Greens are shamefully soft on the EU as a whole, though their ideas for reform are not given full credence.
No2EU/TUSC & RESPECT yet need to build for a chance of any of their opinions being heard.
Thus a credible anti EU voice only exists in UKIP and they are kicking at an open goal.
They are even less hypocritical on migration, for any party can try and sound tough but most migration is from the EU, so actually reducing it is something that can't be done without either leaving or major renegotiation (what Cameron hints at, but bollocks to him for now)
I suspect many in UKIP are of demographic and background that do not appreciate the risk of deliberate far right infiltration, and wouldn't know how to face it down if they did. I have tried raising this a few times on their pages, respectfully. I can't recall any response.
If that risk manifests and they fail to deal with it, it might well be the thing to do for anti fascists to specifically start calling UKIP out - not the whole lot of them for racism - but the generality for not dealing with the far right drifters coming in from the cold. It could even be a legitimate prime focus. What's the point in slagging off a rabble of nutters on the fringes if the party with the 2nd highest Euro vote is being used to push that agenda with a far more respectable face?
We must focus on drumming out Brons and Griffin for sure, there will be debate aplenty about how that is done in coming months and years.
But for now there is no cogent directioned force to speak of on the far right in my estimation, this is in contrast to the potential. I don't see a new party/organisation in the near future - the collapse of the EDL (and partly BNP) have not been fully digested.
Keep eyes on UKIP then, who are highly vulnerable to critique on this issue.
Thoughts appreciated. This was all a bit OTTOTH and not edited, so apologies if it is garbled. But I wanted to help move things on given my part in sometimes holding things back.
john x
Well-Known Member
Of course it will.
These people have threatened violence! In fact it may be a good thing if they got a really good kicking on Saturday to nip it in the bud!
john x
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
you're right about the soccer thing. we highlighted this ages ago with their 'taking liberties' mentality - which is useless as far as politics is concerned. they have an extremely weak grasp of politcal opposition, have no idea about islam and use anti-halal/womens and gay rights as an excuse for 'paki bashing.' their leaders have embarassed them time and again - its tabloid TV time for tommy. the pic of tommy off his head is going to bite his arse as deputy leader of the fluffis. massive blunder pr wise.
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