EDL watch

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Ok, what was it about those words that made you think he was slurring the w/c as illiterate and racist? Can't see it myself.

"Do you think their grammar level is much different to a large section of the working class and lumpen class?"

To which I answered "yes" as someone with long experience of teaching in many such skills.

An inference could be drawn that their spelling etc. may be only as bad as average those classes, and thereby that those classes are predilicted to have such extremely poor language skills as very frequently exhibited by the EDL. That would be a slur. Hope this helps. If you disagree, fine. I think going round the houses on it will give diminishing returns for both of us.

 

[Luther Blissett]

spiked piece on EDL somewhat overestimating their support and underestimating the fact the mr tommy has pissed a lot of people off and the infidels has seriously damaged them. oh and being humiliated in whitechapel didnt help did it?
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/reviewofbooks_preview/11909/
also, who is patrick hayes? he was on on bbc world talking about wiki thing today.

He is one of the Living Marxism lot. They do a mean line in denial - climate change denial, bosnian genocide denial, EDL admin making threats on the interweb denial, and their GM stance is ... well... check them out
Living Marxism - Festering Fascism: http://www.urban75.org/archive/news028.html
Living Marxism - overview: http://www.powerbase.info/index.php/Living_Marxism
Spiked - overview: http://www.powerbase.info/index.php/Spiked
Patrick Hayes: http://www.powerbase.info/index.php/Patrick_Hayes

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Yes, and most of it is taking the piss out of them for having poor grammar and a poor grasp of the English language. I don't know about you, but that's not what I find offensive about them, I'm more bothered about the racism. And when there's plenty of people not aligned to either "side" of this who share their lack of literary skill, and who could possibly be won over to either side, what impact do you think taking the piss out of it will have on them? Will they think, "you know, those middle class liberals are right, the EDL can't spell, just as I can't spell, and so don't deserve my support," or will they think, "the clueless middle class liberals are taking the piss out of people like me so I want to be on the other side"?

Of course their racism bothers me more. Poorly expressed general stuff doesn't bother me at all. English patriots being shit at English does. less intelligent people aint a problem remotely. Less intelligent racists (and more intelligent ones) are.

Those on the sidelines need only be shown the long list of criminal cases and racist vitriol to persuade them. It ain't hard, unless they are obfuscators and apologists.

"This is especially damaging when the same middle class liberals are also taking the piss out of them for being "benefits scrounging scum" or "unemployable", especially when compared to "entrepreneurial Muslims" and "hard working immigrants", as it often is

I don't know about "often". Certainly not on that page. And I have slagged it off where I have seen it.
There is a large cross over between humour and politics.

There is a similar point to be made with "culture". I generally don't give a monkeys about peoples lifestyle and culture. But if they start to froth and gibber about "our way of life" "our culture" etc. then they become fair game for being under the microscope.

How many Elizabethan madrigals do they know? What is their opinion on the Diggers, William Blake etc? If by English "culture" they mean drinking too much, being stupid and racist and playing Call Of Duty a lot I will beg to differ. The idea that such "culture" is only middle class is bloody offensive and stupid. Where I am from the working class took great pride in being cultured. How much money does one need to like Shakespeare? How much control of the means of production or bourgoise interests to listen to Stravinsky? Answer: Bugger all much.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

it's just not funny , at all , it's been pointed out / refferred to a 1000 times, and , Muslimic Rayguns aside, just -i-s- n-o-t- f-u-n-n-y.

Humour is personal but here's 2 for starters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUfZ2Di4EYk&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL9C600349D2137A4D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8pxWTZfim8

They also have this thing about trying to get all poetic about some kind of imminent "civil war".

Or the fuckwit halal protests without a vegan among them.

But how dare we laugh. No no no. Must not laugh - it will make more people racist and only middle class people find thick racists a potential source of humour *

* Excludes working class people who happen to concur.

ETA: It's separate but makes my blood boil. I have to sell my Labour or sign on to get by. We are probably at the point that people will be denounced as "middle class" for reading Marx. Engles, of course, was the very definition of Middle Class. Marx wasn't far behind. I wonder how may self appointed experts of the left will queue up to slag them off.

 

[SpineyNorman]

"Do you think their grammar level is much different to a large section of the working class and lumpen class?"

To which I answered "yes" as someone with long experience of teaching in many such skills.

An inference could be drawn that their spelling etc. may be only as bad as average those classes, and thereby that those classes are predilicted to have such extremely poor language skills as very frequently exhibited by the EDL. That would be a slur. Hope this helps. If you disagree, fine. I think going round the houses on it will give diminishing returns for both of us.

And I'd argue it's not a slur, as someone who grew up on the kind of estates the "lumpen" tend to come from. It's a fact - a greater proportion of working class and "lumpen" people have poor literacy skills. Not because they're stupid but because of the additional barriers they face to getting a good education, as compared to the middle class. Or are you trying to suggest that these inequalities don't exist and don't impact in any way on adult literacy?

He was just stating fact.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Of course their racism bothers me more. Poorly expressed general stuff doesn't bother me at all. English patriots being shit at English does. less intelligent people aint a problem remotely. Less intelligent racists (and more intelligent ones) are.

Those on the sidelines need only be shown the long list of criminal cases and racist vitriol to persuade them. It ain't hard, unless they are obfuscators and apologists.

"This is especially damaging when the same middle class liberals are also taking the piss out of them for being "benefits scrounging scum" or "unemployable", especially when compared to "entrepreneurial Muslims" and "hard working immigrants", as it often is

I don't know about "often". Certainly not on that page. And I have slagged it off where I have seen it.
There is a large cross over between humour and politics.

There is a similar point to be made with "culture". I generally don't give a monkeys about peoples lifestyle and culture. But if they start to froth and gibber about "our way of life" "our culture" etc. then they become fair game for being under the microscope.

How many Elizabethan madrigals do they know? What is their opinion on the Diggers, William Blake etc? If by English "culture" they mean drinking too much, being stupid and racist and playing Call Of Duty a lot I will beg to differ. The idea that such "culture" is only middle class is bloody offensive and stupid. Where I am from the working class took great pride in being cultured. How much money does one need to like Shakespeare? How much control of the means of production or bourgoise interests to listen to Stravinsky? Answer: Bugger all much.

Are you a member of UAF taffboy? I think you'd fit in well there.

Well done on not even attempting to address the questions posed to you though.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

Are you a member of UAF taffboy? I think you'd fit in well there.

Well done on not even attempting to address the questions posed to you though.

The efforts in attaining education (even outside of formal channels) among the working class is something the middle classes haven't liked either. Tried to influence it, stop it, divert it and traduced the working class as thick, stupid, narrow, incapable etc.

What taff misses with regard to class, is that it isn't just whether or not someone is acquainted with canonical works from various periods in history. These people aren't just derided for their racism. Others, including those who are literate and articulate, and who aren't racist, are just going to think 'Hang on, you're also taking the piss out of my family too. And my neighbours, workmates etc.' It won't push people into joining with or agreeing with the racists, but it can be counter-productive, and they'll just give the middle class lefty outsiders a wide berth.

 

[malatesta32]

thanks LB! RCP. blimey.

 

[SpineyNorman]

The efforts in attaining education (even outside of formal channels) among the working class is something the middle classes haven't liked either. Tried to influence it, stop it, divert it and traduced the working class as thick, stupid, narrow, incapable etc.

What taff misses with regard to class, is that it isn't just whether or not someone is acquainted with canonical works from various periods in history. These people aren't just derided for their racism. Others, including those who are literate and articulate, and who aren't racist, are just going to think 'Hang on, you're also taking the piss out of my family too. And my neighbours, workmates etc.' It won't push people into joining with or agreeing with the racists, but it can be counter-productive, and they'll just give the middle class lefty outsiders a wide berth.

Precisely.

 

[Deareg]

Anyone spot the deliberate spelling mistake?

 

[Red Storm]

Just spotted this: http://fashwatch.weebly.com/

 

[Red Storm]

They call us "middle class pricks" anyway. Why govern what we do or say by their paranoia? It's not snootiness, we are not talking about the odd typo or split infinitive here. It is extremely sub standard. If the irony of English patriots being shit at English escapes them or others then far enough. I find it funny. I am not trying to convert them in doing so. That requires reason, which appears to be beyond them too. There is a difference between saying "gosh, they are dim" about them and "gosh you are dim" to them.

As for class and the BNP - that is not the same point as associating extremely bad English skills with the working class. Some (pretty old) research shows that BNP voters have the lowest IQ of all voters. I know IQ tests chiefly measure the ability to do IQ tests, but again it is useful to know.

You're totally missing the class perspective of the whole subject. It's not their bad spelling that is a threat to the working class community it is their politics.

Do you really think the majority of racist working class and lumpen people have the following thought train: why am I unemployed and living in shit conditions? ---> Ah! It's because of immigration just like "BNP Jim" down the pub said. Not like there is any other answer to my problem on my estate. ---> Now I'm a concious political nationalist I must go down the library and beef up on my Shakespeare because I've missed out on that part of my education, being failed by the education system and all.

No what actually happens is just the first two stages.

Now image that after the second stage imagine another equally as unlikely counterfactual. Someone like you goes to a working class estate. Rather than explaining to these people why class rather than nation or race is the solution to their problems and then trying to enact that by becoming involved in the local politics of that estate, you simply sneer at their low levels of education. A problem caused by the very thing that socialists should be fighting against.

As for the IQ thing that is just laughable. Not only do you not provide evidence but IQ has been found wanting in a number of respects. Including white, middle class people doing better in them because the tests are set by white, middle class people. (This was in The Economist in 2010 sometime, it's because they ask questions like 'unjumble this anogram to find this famous person: eraeehspkas'.)

 

[Captain Hurrah]

tbf, taffboy acknowledged that, re IQ.

Agree on the middle class. Subjectively, and on life in poor working class communities especially, haven't got a fucking clue.

Going to make more enemies than friends with an attitude like that.

 

[Red Storm]

tbf, taffboy acknowledged that, re IQ.

Agree on the middle class. Subjectively, and on life in poor working class communities especially, haven't got a fucking clue.

Going to make more enemies than friends with an attitude like that.

I don't understand your post.

He still used IQ to back up his argument though. If he knows it is not a good measurement then he shouldn't have mentioned it.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

What I was saying before, about culture, education.

 

[Red Storm]

I'm still lost. Are you saying I haven't got a clue and will make enemies or taff?

 

[Captain Hurrah]

No, no. That Taff's attitude, or that which has been perhaps articulated wrongly on this thread, will make enemies, re the sneeriness. I know it would among members of my family, but that is being anecdotal. And they aren't racist either.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

Yeah, I realise now that the IQ thing was another seemingly sneery 'fail', as the teenagers say these days.

 

[frogwoman]

i can't see what spelling and literacy have to do with fighting the fash, surely that's the product of a shitty education system? one of my mates has trouble with literacy. in middle class households people who have trouble with literacy or with reading and writing are more likely to be picked up on and often given therapy or extra help which the parents can either afford or have a chance to take the kids to, whereas my friend wasn't, she's very much had to fend for herself. it's insulting to people to link fash with problems with spelling etc. i don't see what good it can do.

 

[frogwoman]

and i also notice taffboy has made more than a few spelling errors himself on the thread, as someone who has worked as a proofreader. (I know I have too but I don't bother to write properly on urban75 much of the time)

 

[frogwoman]

As for class and the BNP - that is not the same point as associating extremely bad English skills with the working class. Some (pretty old) research shows that BNP voters have the lowest IQ of all voters. I know IQ tests chiefly measure the ability to do IQ tests, but again it is useful to know.

i'd like a link to this please (and the very concept of people's political choices determined by biological factors such as intelligence is pretty fash-like itself).

 

[Captain Hurrah]

i can't see what spelling and literacy have to do with fighting the fash, surely that's the product of a shitty education system? one of my mates has trouble with literacy. in middle class households people who have trouble with literacy or with reading and writing are more likely to be picked up on and often given therapy or extra help which the parents can either afford or have a chance to take the kids to, whereas my friend wasn't, she's very much had to fend for herself. it's insulting to people to link fash with problems with spelling etc. i don't see what good it can do.

It's unquestioned class prejudice.

Not slagging you, you're sound, but it is a simplistic, blind assumption people make. Sadly, it is how far discourse on class is based just on culture these days, rather than the importance imo of an economically-generated explanation. Or rather, on the 'culture front' (to use an old Leninist term, ironically I promise, lol), an outsider's inaccurate and back-firing view of culture and the working class. No wonder the left is fucked.

 

[Red Storm]

It's unquestioned class prejudice.

Not slagging you, you're sound, but it is a simplistic, blind assumption people make. Sadly, it is how far discourse on class is based just on culture these days, rather than the importance imo of an economically-generated explanation. Or rather, on the 'culture front' (to use an old Leninist term, ironically I promise, lol), an outsider's inaccurate and back-firing view of culture and the working class. No wonder the left is fucked.

I think culture is an important aspect of class but I believe a lot of culture is generated by economic conditions.

 

[frogwoman]

It's unquestioned class prejudice.

Not slagging you, you're sound, but it is a simplistic, blind assumption people make. Sadly, it is how far discourse on class is based just on culture these days, rather than the importance imo of an economically-generated explanation. Or rather, on the 'culture front' (to use an old Leninist term, ironically I promise, lol), an outsider's inaccurate and back-firing view of culture and the working class. No wonder the left is fucked.

i wasn't saying that was what i thought mate, not saying that people who are working class are all pathetic at spelling and writing, but those who are are less likely to be able to be given help etc with that stuff. we were watching a movie at the weekend about gangsters and my friend didn't know wat the kkk were/are or who al capone was, she also has trouble understanding things in some newspapers such as the daily mail. that doesn't maker her thick it just means that she's had very different priorities in life and much less spare time than a lot of others, and its also the assumptions by teachers etc that people are thick as well. i've always thought it's very very dangerous to assume that the extreme right are stupid or that problems reading and understanding/being interested "cultural" things is a sign of stupidity. many times i think people feel intimidated and shut out from that stuff so they don't try.

the thing with the fash is that they are not all (or even mostly!) stupid, they are not all even illiterate. it's very very dangerous to assume that they are. i don't see that having a go at people for spelling and writing has the slightest bit to do with fighting the fash or giving fascist ideology less credibility.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

I know you weren't.

Been there done that. Until I met a working class Marxist tutor in FE.

My best teacher at school was a 'middle class wanker.' The best middle class wanker I have ever known. Used to talk about falling asleep while reading a book and waking in the morning to find his cheek had been reddened by the book resting on his face. Not quite sure if that was some weird sexual euphemism, but I generally knew what he meant.

 

[frogwoman]

 

[intersol32]

Just spotted this: http://fashwatch.weebly.com/

Fucking hell. Simon Biggs (Skrewdriver tattoo on forehead) - is he still around? Thought he was dead by now.

 

[Red Storm]

Fucking hell. Simon Biggs (Skrewdriver tattoo on forehead) - is he still around? Thought he was dead by now.

He came up on here not too long ago. I think on the BTF thread. Had the tattoo removed I believe.

 

[Red Storm]

Fucking hell. Simon Biggs (Skrewdriver tattoo on forehead) - is he still around? Thought he was dead by now.

Pic 15 of 30 in the unknown section is known by some on here. I was there when that picture was taken, it's at Rochdale Majestrates. Wayne Taylor was in court and we'd gone to support the Asian lads he'd tried to stab.

I put the pic up online with a name but I can't remember it now.

 

[krink]

Fucking hell. Simon Biggs (Skrewdriver tattoo on forehead) - is he still around? Thought he was dead by now.

runs newcastle NF. had the tatoo removed then got another one a bit further round his fat head