Drivers who don't indicate at junctions

[WouldBe]

thanks for confirming your ignorance on this topic

Just because I've not driven for 20+ years doesn't mean I've forgotten how to drive.

Indicators are there to let all other road users know what you intend to do. Failure to use them is ignorant.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Just because I've not driven for 20+ years doesn't mean I've forgotten how to drive.

Indicators are there to let all other road users know what you intend to do. Failure to use them is ignorant.

you are still ignorant of good practie in Driving standards, IPSGA hasn't changed significantly in that time

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

And in answer to my own question, this table would suggest that pedestrian safety is in fact much better in Germany than in the UK. But I'm sure jaywalking laws in Germany and pedestrians religiously obeying the red man there have nothing to do with it.

Pedestrians killed in road traffic accidents - Data Portal - United Nations Economic Commission for Europe

w3.unece.org

Germany and the UK pretty much neck & neck there.

The USA though

 

[scifisam]

Germany and the UK pretty much neck & neck there.

The USA though

Yeah, that's a minuscule difference. And then the country that actually jails people for jaywalking has almost exactly 20 times the pedestrian deaths! I don't think it really shows that jaywalking laws help...

Everyone should take care when crossing the road though, obviously. Even if you were in the right (and you're not always, as a pedestrian) you'd still be dead.

 

[WouldBe]

you are still ignorant of good practie in Driving standards, IPSGA hasn't changed significantly in that time

Quick look I've had of that doesn't say anything about not indicating.

 

[Spymaster]

Anyone who bangs on about IPSGA has more than likely just done a one or two day public driving course. Most drivers with even modest experience do all that anyway.

Again, there is no advantage in NOT indicating EVER. It's a theory wank game for bellends, and a great way to get a 40 page thread on Pistonheads.

 

[WouldBe]

you are still ignorant of good practie in Driving standards, IPSGA hasn't changed significantly in that time

My uncle was an advanced motorcycle instructor and examiner and whenever I've been pillion with him he's always indicated before making a manoeuvre.

 

[InArduisFouette]

My uncle was an advanced motorcycle instructor and examiner and whenever I've been pillion with him he's always indicated before making a manoeuvre.

interestign given that he would be marked down in certain circumstances for an unwarranted use of signals

what does your uncle say aobut road positioning to give information aobut your intentions ?

 

[WouldBe]

what does your uncle say aobut road positioning to give information aobut your intentions ?

Nothing, he died years ago.

Your road position tells other drivers nothing about your intentions that's what indicators are for.

 

[WouldBe]

If there's a T junction on a lefthand bend, your 'positioning' training says to move over to the right so you have better sight lines round the corner but your then positioned close to the white line. Does this position mean your turning right into the side road?

 

[A380]

MSM is rather outdated ,

the System of Car Control which is deemed the gold standard, as this is what underpins vocational, advanced and emergency services driver training uses the following

Information, Position, Speed , Gear , Acceleration

indicator use , like the use of the horn and flashing your main beams needs to be considered and contextualised

thisi s the difference between a driver and steering wheel operative

Indeed

In the system of car control (which is a bit dated, but that's for another thread) teaches that you should only use the indicators if there is someone in sight to whom that information would be of use (could be another driver, cyclist or pedestrian). The reason isn't to save indicator bulbs, its all part of the same system to try and get the driver to be aware of their total surroundings. So if approaching a junction or a lane change the driver should already know (by virtue of their constant scan) if there is anyone who could possibly be affected by their actions and if not, they shouldn't indicate. Use of the indicator where there is no one who needs to see it it shows the driver hadn't maintained the correct detailed picture of their surroundings.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Nothing, he died years ago.

Your road position tells other drivers nothing about your intentions that's what indicators are for.

thanks for the confirmation that you are grasping, a read of A380 post may be informative as might watching some of Reg Local;s work on You tube

 

[InArduisFouette]

Indeed

In the system of car control (which is a bit dated, but that's for another thread) teaches that you should only use the indicators if there is someone in sight to whom that information would be of use (could be another driver, cyclist or pedestrian). The reason isn't to save indicator bulbs, its all part of the same system to try and get the driver to be aware of their total surroundings. So if approaching a junction or a lane change the driver should already know (by virtue of their constant scan) if there is anyone who could possibly be affected by their actions and if not, they shouldn't indicate. Use of the indicator where there is no one who needs to see it it shows the driver hadn't maintained the correct detailed picture of their surroundings.

we could argue BGOL and various issues with the System as rigidly employed by some Police instructors and the I Am Meldrews but that is tangential to the discussion at hand

you sum up the System;s attitude towards signally very succinctly

 

[WouldBe]

So drivers are supposed to have x-ray vision now then?

What if there's a fence/wall right up to the road edge? How do you know if there's anything that might need to know your intentions that you can't see because of it.

Pedestrians/cyclists in dark clothing without lights?

 

[A380]

So drivers are supposed to have x-ray vision now then?

What if there's a fence/wall right up to the road edge? How do you know if there's anything that might need to know your intentions that you can't see because of it.

Pedestrians/cyclists in dark clothing without lights?

If you can't see someone that can see you (dark clothing etc, no lights) then you aren't driving to the standards required. Missing noticing a pedestrian or a cyclist in those circumstances would be a massive downcheck.

 

[SpookyFrank]

So drivers are supposed to have x-ray vision now then?

What if there's a fence/wall right up to the road edge? How do you know if there's anything that might need to know your intentions that you can't see because of it.

Pedestrians/cyclists in dark clothing without lights?

What's the worst that could happen if you just indicated on the off chance?

 

[A380]

What's the worst that could happen if you just indicated on the off chance?

Nothing. it's not about wether you indicate or not. It's about making sure the driver is fully engaged and aware of their surroundings at all times. The non use of indicators when there is no one around is an indicator ( if you will) of that.

 

[WouldBe]

If you can't see someone that can see you (dark clothing etc, no lights) then you aren't driving to the standards required. Missing noticing a pedestrian or a cyclist in those circumstances would be a massive downcheck.

What if they are 200+ yards away?

It costs fuck all to put your indicators on.

 

[A380]

What if they are 200+ yards away?

It costs fuck all to put your indicators on.

You're missing the point. It's about making sure people are driving with the best possible observation and awareness. Don't worry if you aren't capable of driving like that, it. doesn't make you that bad a driver. Just not as good as you could be.

 

[Spymaster]

Indeed

In the system of car control (which is a bit dated, but that's for another thread) teaches that you should only use the indicators if there is someone in sight to whom that information would be of use (could be another driver, cyclist or pedestrian). The reason isn't to save indicator bulbs, its all part of the same system to try and get the driver to be aware of their total surroundings. So if approaching a junction or a lane change the driver should already know (by virtue of their constant scan) if there is anyone who could possibly be affected by their actions and if not, they shouldn't indicate. Use of the indicator where there is no one who needs to see it it shows the driver hadn't maintained the correct detailed picture of their surroundings.

Ok, I'll play

No it doesn't. At least not necessarily. You can still have effectively completed all your scans and consciously decide to indicate to no one in particular. The argument against it is that it promotes "autopilot" driving, but the argument for it is that auto reflexes such as that are more useful than harmful, particularly for drivers who spend a lot of time in built-up areas where peds can occasionally be hard to see, or may appear unexpectedly.

In 30-odd years I've never seen this argument won by the "don't indicate" side when they're asked to provide a clear scenario of greater benefit than harm.

Your turn!

 

[SpookyFrank]

The biggest impediment to seeing hazards when driving at night is other drivers' thermonuclear LED headlights.

 

[InArduisFouette]

What's the worst that could happen if you just indicated on the off chance?

there's a junction i used fairly frequently it;a T junction but there is a little bit of a bend in the road that goes across the top of the T which impedes visibility and on one side of the road going off there;s greenery that impedes the view , and when doing my 'civvie' advanced driving my commentary on approaching that junction to turn off the main road would be

I can see that i don't have a clear view through the junction if i maintain a normal position, therefore i'm going to position out to if not slightly across the centre line , i also can see i have a limited view off the right due to the greenery soi'm braking sooner and morte firmly thatn i would otherwise , i'm considering signalling to make my intention very clear to any one i can't yet see but who might see me before i have a clear view of them.

further down the same road there's a TOTSO T junction with the road marked to indicate the main road goes round the corner, it;s also very clear sightlines wise , my approch there will be totally different and if it's clear would me no sighalling, no change of speed and kiss the centeline marking as i take the turn off

 

[InArduisFouette]

Ok, I'll play

No it doesn't. At least not necessarily. You can still have effectively completed all your scans and consciously decide to indicate to no one in particular. The argument against it is that it promotes "autopilot" driving, but the argument for it is that auto reflexes such as that are more useful than harmful, particularly for drivers who spend a lot of time in built-up areas where peds can occasionally be hard to see, or may appear unexpectedly.

In 30-odd years I've never seen this argument won by the "don't indicate" side when they're asked to provide a clear scenario of greater benefit than harm.

Your turn!

oh look it's spymaster come to wave his Dunning -Kruger card

 

[WouldBe]

You're missing the point. It's about making sure people are driving with the best possible observation and awareness. Don't worry if you aren't capable of driving like that, it. doesn't make you that bad a driver. Just not as good as you could be.

I've not had an accident in all the years I've been driving.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Oh look, some willy waving on a road usage thread. What a rare development.

What is less usual for a transport thread is I seem to agree with Spymaster !

 

[Spymaster]

... I seem to agree with Spymaster !

Don't worry too much. Most people find it's a temporary affliction.

 

[SpookyFrank]

there's a junction i used fairly frequently it;a T junction but there is a little bit of a bend in the road that goes across the top of the T which impedes visibility and on one side of the road going off there;s greenery that impedes the view , and when doing my 'civvie' advanced driving my commentary on approaching that junction to turn off the main road would be

I can see that i don't have a clear view through the junction if i maintain a normal position, therefore i'm going to position out to if not slightly across the centre line , i also can see i have a limited view off the right due to the greenery soi'm braking sooner and morte firmly thatn i would otherwise , i'm considering signalling to make my intention very clear to any one i can't yet see but who might see me before i have a clear view of them.

further down the same road there's a TOTSO T junction with the road marked to indicate the main road goes round the corner, it;s also very clear sightlines wise , my approch there will be totally different and if it's clear would me no sighalling, no change of speed and kiss the centeline marking as i take the turn off

I hope you bought the centreline marking breakfast afterwards. Or at least booked it a taxi home.

 

[Winot]

This is all a load of disingenuous bollocks isn't it. The people not indicating where I'm cycling through London aren't hyperaware advanced drivers - they are entitled idiots who don't give enough of a fuck about other people's safety.

 

[InArduisFouette]

This is all a load of disingenuous bollocks isn't it. The people not indicating where I'm cycling through London aren't hyperaware advanced drivers - they are entitled idiots who don't give enough of a fuck about other people's safety.

you seem to be missing the point here

on one side we have people who quite clearly have not engaged in driver development since passing their DSA test ( if they have a full car or motorbike licence ) claiming that you must signal for every manouvere

on the otherside we have people who have been involved in driver development activities whether for pleasure or for work , talking aobut the nuance of applying the System of car Control in daily driving

 

[Spymaster]

on one side we have people who quite clearly have not engaged in driver development since passing their DSA test ...