Drag Queen Story Times picketed by protestors who claim that it grooms children and promotes paedophilia

[smokedout]

Another question is why a very mild assertion that children should not be exposed to sexualised dancing is met with a raft of accusations of bigotry, homophobia, prudishness and pearl-clutching, and whether this may be inadvisable in some way.

Perhaps the answer is that when someone specifically focuses on LGBTQ culture and ignores the far more widespread sexualised displays that happen in front of children within heterosexual culture then it's not unreasonable to question whether internalised homophobia is a factor in their thinking.

 

[cesare]

It’s through the fucking looking glass. Like now it’s controversial to assert that children shouldn’t be exposed to sexualised acts, or that women should be able to say they don’t want men in their toilets.

It’s almost like the boundaries for women and children don’t matter if some men want to break them.

Are you talking about men or trans women here?

 

[Santino]

Perhaps the answer is that when someone specifically focuses on LGBTQ culture and ignores the far more widespread sexualised displays that happen in front of children within heterosexual culture then it's not unreasonable to question whether internalised homophobia is a factor in their thinking.

This is just basic whataboutery.

 

[Edie]

Are you talking about men or trans women here?

Both. Trans women are men who identify as women.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Perhaps the answer is that when someone specifically focuses on LGBTQ culture and ignores the far more widespread sexualised displays that happen in front of children within heterosexual culture then it's not unreasonable to question whether internalised homophobia is a factor in their thinking.

What is particularly LGBTQ about a woman with just her nipples covered at a mother and baby event?

 

[cesare]

Both. Trans women are men who identify as women.

No. Trans women are people that identify as women.

 

[Rob Ray]

So the sexualisation is, indeed, irrelevant, and what this is actually about is a visceral dislike of "men dressing up as women." Glad we finally got the nub of the matter out in the open, but honesty would have made this thread much shorter.

 

[Santino]

So the sexualisation is, indeed, irrelevant, and what this is actually about is a visceral dislike of "men dressing up as women." Glad we finally got to the nub of the matter, but honesty would have made this thread much shorter.

Where have you pulled that from?

 

[Rob Ray]

Where have you pulled that from?

You can keep banging away with the pretense if you prefer, but

Trans women are men who identify as women.

is very clear.

 

[Santino]

You can keep banging away with the pretense if you prefer, but

is very clear.

Edie and I are not the same person.

 

[Rob Ray]

Edie and I are not the same person.

Lucky I didn't suggest otherwise then.

 

[Pickman's model]

Edie and I are not the same person.

your powers of observation are keen indeed

 

[Dystopiary]

Can do, sure, and I'm certainly not saying that everyone's worth chasing to try and steer them away from a path they're set on. But I do think winning this particular fight involves getting people onside, and that involves a mix (God I get tired of saying "case by case") of approaches. It's more complicated, or should be, than just the switch being flicked and people being frozen out. Not that the internet in particular encourages this at all.

Yep. I think cis men (and this isn't aimed at you here, though I'm not sure how you identify anyway, but just to be clear) shouting "FUCKING BIGOT" at women who are maybe fearful, concerned - it's not necessarily helpful. I've often wondered if it's actually doing more harm than good to a cause they claim to support.

eta This could just as well have been a reply to what you said here hitmouse:

I mean, there's disagreement and disagreement, innit. I think there's lots of different ways of expressing disapproval of someone's opinions, and the internet/social media does definitely tend to encourage certain ones - pointscoring, performative dunks, owning the libs/terfs/whoever - over others, like mutually respectful discussion with the aim of finding common ground where possible and prioritising the possibility of repair and continued connection.

 

[Edie]

No. Trans women are people that identify as women.

That’s your opinion but it’s not mine, and it’s not biological reality either. A man who changes their name and clothing does not magically become a woman. A man who takes oestrogen or has surgery does not change sex.

Men who identify as trans women are welcome to do so, and I support their right to live a life in peace and with society accommodating their safety with gender neutral facilities. I even think it’s fun and necessary and important to be able to play about with gender stereotypes.

But I’m afraid it’s just reality that trans people don’t literally change sex. A trans woman is still a man.

I think drag queens are largely men who dress in drag (based on female stereotypes) and not trans women anyway, but could be wrong. Can anyone clarify?

 

[belboid]

Yep. I think cis men (and this isn't aimed at you here, though I'm not sure how you identify anyway, but just to be clear) shouting "FUCKING BIGOT" at women who are maybe fearful, concerned - it's not necessarily helpful. I've often wondered if it's actually doing more harm than good to a cause they claim to support.

but pointing out that opinions are bigoted is very well worth doing. The view that gay or trans people doing any kind of performance is sexualised (and this is what the Daily Mail quoters' claims boil down to ) is bigoted and needs to be challenged. Especially if it is almost immediately followed with 'yeah, but they're not women really.'

 

[cesare]

That’s your opinion but it’s not mine, and it’s not biological reality either. A man who changes their name and clothing does not magically become a woman. A man who takes oestrogen or has surgery does not change sex.

Men who identify as trans women are welcome to do so, and I support their right to live a life in peace and with society accommodating their safety with gender neutral facilities. I even think it’s fun and necessary and important to be able to play about with gender stereotypes.

But I’m afraid it’s just reality that trans people don’t literally change sex. A trans woman is still a man.

I think drag queens are largely men who dress in drag (based on female stereotypes) and not trans women anyway, but could be wrong. Can anyone clarify?

You appreciate, I imagine - because of your medical background - that "biological reality" is not as clear cut as you say.

 

[Edie]

but pointing out that opinions are bigoted is very well worth doing. The view that gay or trans people doing any kind of performance is sexualised (and this is what the Daily Mail quoters' claims boil down to ) is bigoted and needs to be challenged. Especially if it is almost immediately followed with 'yeah, but they're not women really.'

Are you asserting that drag queens are women

 

[Rob Ray]

The really annoying thing about the current wave of Just Asking Important Questions is it's so removed the initial viewpoint it now takes us 10 pages of drilling down to get to the "actually I just don't want to call trans women women" bit.

 

[belboid]

Are you asserting that drag queens are women

I'm asserting what I asserted. If you have trouble comprehending it, thats your problem, not mine.

 

[Dystopiary]

but pointing out that opinions are bigoted is very well worth doing. The view that gay or trans people doing any kind of performance is sexualised (and this is what the Daily Mail quoters' claims boil down to ) is bigoted and needs to be challenged. Especially if it is almost immediately followed with 'yeah, but they're not women really.'

I get that, absolutely, but I'm talking about when there are cis men doing the shouting down, and the shoutees are women who are voicing concerns. Whether those concerns are rooted in genuine fear or bigotry is a large part of the debate, but the point stands. I'm wondering if it's actually unhelpful or even counterproductive.

 

[belboid]

I get that, absolutely, but I'm talking about when there are cis men doing shouting down, and the shoutees are women who are voicing concerns. Whether those concerns are rooted in genuine fear or bigotry is a large part of the debate, but the point stands. I'm wondering if it's actually unhelpful or even counterproductive.

Sure, I get that. And largely agree. Altho when it's the same old face(s) coming along and going 'I'm not bigoted but....' and then repeat exactly the same bullshit time after time, I get the frustrations.

 

[Rob Ray]

We all do. I've taken breaks from various places on those grounds, including Urban at one point.

 

[Santino]

The really annoying thing about the current wave of Just Asking Important Questions is it's so removed the initial viewpoint it now takes us 10 pages of drilling down to get to the "actually I just don't want to call trans women women" bit.

At least everyone can now stop worrying about whether it's wise to meet all concerns about children's boundaries with accusations of bigotry or prudishness. That's a relief.

 

[Rob Ray]

At least everyone can now stop worrying about whether it's wise to meet all concerns about children's boundaries with accusations of bigotry or prudishness. That's a relief.

You still didn't answer my question about Strictly, Santino. Scantily-clad people up to their eyeballs in hormones right there on the telly. What's the bit that leaves you okay with this? How about Notting Hill Carnival, is that alright? Loads of kids there.

 

[agricola]

The really annoying thing about the current wave of Just Asking Important Questions is it's so removed the initial viewpoint it now takes us 10 pages of drilling down to get to the "actually I just don't want to call trans women women" bit.

That and the fact that so many people Just Asking Important Questions are either asking for donations or selling "merch", or both. The monetization of outrage is something that does my head in.

Its completely unrelated to this topic but a few weeks ago I was unlucky enough to see Piers Corbyn and team protesting outside News International. I say protesting, but all they appeared to be do is filming content - they were there for about ten minutes, filming themselves shouting and demanding answers, and then filmed themselves walking into London Bridge. I didn't know whether to laugh, cry or just hope a bus driver didn't see them and ran them over.

 

[Shechemite]

There are posters on here who insist on fighting battles they will never win. They won’t, however eloquent their rationalising is, convince people not to be worried and weirded out by, for example, blokes in thongs doing cabaret for babies,

I don’t really understand why so many people, whose lives really aren’t that bad, insist on behaving in ways that will obviously result in a hostile response.

Living with dysphoria is hard, but I can’t see how making yourself into a freak show and solicitong negative attention helps either those who do so, or people who’s lives are so much harder, and whose voices and lived experience get ignored in favour of the silly sods we’re discussing.

 

[Edie]

You appreciate, I imagine - because of your medical background - that "biological reality" is not as clear cut as you say.

Humans are sexually dimorphic as a species, which means they are either male or female, thats the scientific and medical reality. As are the medical differences between males and females in every single way, from genetics to physiology. People can be intersex, about 1.7% I think. Variation exists, and it’s important those people are supported to access the healthcare they want (or none at all related to their intersex- it’s not necessarily something that can or should be ‘treated’ after all) at an age they can make informed decisions for themselves.

 

[belboid]

making yourself into a freak show

nice

 

[cesare]

Humans are sexually dimorphic as a species, which means they are either male or female, thats the scientific and medical reality. As are the medical differences between males and females in every single way, from genetics to physiology. People can be intersex, about 1.7% I think. Variation exists, and it’s important those people are supported to access the healthcare they want (or none at all related to their intersex- it’s not necessarily something that can or should be ‘treated’ after all) at an age they can make informed decisions for themselves.

 

[Edie]

There are posters on here who insist on fighting battles they will never win. They won’t, however eloquent their rationalising is, convince people not to be worried and weirded out by, for example, blokes in thongs doing cabaret for babies,

I don’t really understand why so many people, whose lives really aren’t that bad, insist on behaving in ways that will obviously result in a hostile response.

Living with dysphoria is hard, but I can’t see how making yourself into a freak show and solicitong negative attention helps either those who do so, or people who’s lives are so much harder, and whose voices and lived experience get ignored in favour of the silly sods we’re discussing.

It seems an unusual direction to take for sure.