Drag Queen Story Times picketed by protestors who claim that it grooms children and promotes paedophilia

[Sweet FA]

Are waltzes okay? Clearly rhumba's are out. And me dancing in any way at all, cos I can't help being sexy all the time.

 

[Serge Forward]

All sexy dancing? Should dads be taking two year olds to lap dancing clubs? Or is there a line somewhere between appropriate and inappropriate behaviour, and we are disagreeing about exactly where that line should be?

You said "sexy dancing". That's a very broad category. I can't think of many types of dancing (apart from the hand jive maybe) which don't include some form of "sexiness". Well played with taking kids to lap dancing clubs, mind

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Not sure I can think of anyone who has opted to take their infant to a baby rave with semi-clad dancers rather than, say, soft play tbh. But each to their own.

 

[smokedout]

Not sure I can think of anyone who has opted to take their infant to a baby rave with semi-clad dancers rather than, say, soft play tbh. But each to their own.

Have you ever been a main carer for a baby? I know loads of people, myself included, who've taken babies to festivals where there might be sexy dancing, foul language, suggestive attire and all manners of lewdness. As the event organisers said, there's only so many times you can listen to wheels on a fucking bus.

 

[pbsmooth]

Not sure I can think of anyone who has opted to take their infant to a baby rave with semi-clad dancers rather than, say, soft play tbh. But each to their own.

Half of London parents at a vague guess

 

[elbows]

Would anyone like to venture the opinion that sexy dancing is something that positively should be done in front of babies, and then I can have a turn at the whataboutery?

If it helps the mood and mental health of the parent and the young one is of an age where things are mostly just an abstract show of colour and movement, then I see positives not negatives.

 

[Thora]

How? By preventing parents from attending any event where sexy dancing may take place?

Have you ever been a main carer for a baby?

I have, and I haven't ever needed to take a baby/child to an event involving nipple tassles and thongs I mean, you can just go to actual baby sensory sessions where everyone is dressed.

Will it harm the children in the audience to take them to this? Probably not. Is it a pretty weird thing to take your baby to? Yes.

I don't think it's a paedo plot though, just middle class parents trying to look transgressive

 

[pbsmooth]

Yeah that's probably a bit much

 

[cesare]

Mumsnet is losing its shit over this

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

 

[elbows]

When it comes to what potential harms babies are actually exposed to routinely, their parent(s) being stressed, depressed and possibly resentful and isolated is quite high on my list.

 

[smokedout]

I have, and I haven't ever needed to take a baby/child to an event involving nipple tassles and thongs I mean, you can just go to actual baby sensory sessions where everyone is dressed.

But this was an event aimed at parents, not babies, at which some very mild burlesque appears to have been a small part. It was billed as a cabaret/rave, not a sexy dancing show. I agree it looks a bit naff and middle class and I doubt it's something I'd have gone to but I support the principle of events for parents of babies to enjoy which aren't cringy infantilised sing alongs or other nonsense (which also are usually just as middle class).

 

[belboid]

Mumsnet is losing its shit over this

Sadly, they'll only find it again and continue throwing it at the rest of us

 

[Thora]

But this was an event aimed at parents, not babies, at which some very mild burlesque appears to have been a small part. It was billed as a cabaret/rave, not a sexy dancing show. I agree it looks a bit naff and middle class and I doubt it's something I'd have gone to but I support the principle of events for parents of babies to enjoy which aren't cringy infantilised sing alongs or other nonsense (which also are usually just as middle class).

I'm not really sure what the distinction is between 'aimed at parents' and 'aimed at babies' or whether it matters. It seems to me to be aimed at parents bringing their under 5s with them, with performers interacting with children and there being explicitly 'baby sensory' elements of the show.

 

[elbows]

As the event organisers said, there's only so many times you can listen to wheels on a fucking bus.

The nipple tassles go round and round, round and round, round and round.

 

[Rob Ray]

And the ones on here pretend to be left wing as well.

I think there's a note to be drawn on this - the moniker "Terf" is largely out of date at this point but it doesn't come from nowhere. A fair number of very active leftists were involved in the build-up to the current mess. They often declare themselves "politically homeless" these days precisely because 90% of their politics are left, with a side of single-issue bigotry. There's lots of people who have similar issues around their political positions, including with anti-Semitism, racism, sexism etc, and we probably need a conversation to happen which isn't either "I'm a bigot and left, accept me or I'll whine about cancel culture forever" or "no true leftist."

 

[smokedout]

I'm not really sure what the distinction is between 'aimed at parents' and 'aimed at babies' or whether it matters. It seems to me to be aimed at parents bringing their under 5s with them, with performers interacting with children and there being explicitly 'baby sensory' elements of the show.

But isn't that a good thing? Way back when I was involved with parties and festivals we used to actively push for a kids/family space so that parents, who were usually women, could be included. We didn't expect them to stay in those spaces though, the intention was that there'd be something for adults to enjoy and something for kids.

 

[Thora]

But isn't that a good thing? Way back when I was involved with parties and festivals we used to actively push for a kids/family space so that parents, who were usually women, could be included. We didn't expect them to stay in those spaces though, the intention was that there'd be something for adults to enjoy and something for kids.

Yeah sure, it's the putting men in thongs in there that makes it weird.

 

[SpookyFrank]

There's lots of people who have similar issues around their political positions, including with anti-Semitism, racism, sexism etc,

And until those people sort out their shitty opinions I've got no time for them either.

I'm not interested in negotiating with bigots about what they'd prefer to be called. They don't like 'TERF' but then they don't like any accurate description of their views and behaviour because they know, on some level, that their views and behaviour are actually dogshit.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Have you ever been a main carer for a baby? I know loads of people, myself included, who've taken babies to festivals where there might be sexy dancing, foul language, suggestive attire and all manners of lewdness. As the event organisers said, there's only so many times you can listen to wheels on a fucking bus.

Not a main carer though. But a carer non the less.

 

[elbows]

we probably need a conversation to happen which isn't either "I'm a bigot and left, accept me or I'll whine about cancel culture forever" or "no true leftist."

When I've tried in the past I usually just ended up shouting 'mind the generation gap', moaning about long shadows cast by previous eras and generations, and all the heavy baggage. Or getting depressed about the way people remember being younger themselves via a narrow nostalgic path that places emphasis on cultural things they remember fondly that have since changed, rather than via the feelings/state of mind and issues/principals that actually mattered.

 

[smokedout]

I think people are being very naive if they don't acknowledge that the queer/drag element has played a huge part on the confected outrage to this.

 

[Edie]

Wtf at anyone thinking this is appropriate for children of any age.

And if you think it’s just the far right who have a problem with sexualised drag queen performances for children you’re deluded.

And I’d be very wary of letting young adolescents in my care be exposed to lap dancing, drag shows, burlesque or any other name you want to give the objectification of women. And I say that as someone who as an adolescent was involved in that world.

Adults- do what you like to get your kicks, I know I have my kinks But you won’t find me supporting the exposure of children to sexual material. Hard no from me. And I give no shits if that makes me a pearl clutching prude in your eyes.

 

[Rob Ray]

And until those people sort out their shitty opinions I've got no time for them either.

Which is fine on an individual level, especially for people who have to live with it being aimed at them, but fact is these people won't sort out their shitty opinions if they're permanently corralled into internet silos filled with other bigots. Imo as a movement we've repeatedly made errors by thinking we can aggressively exclude our way out of this. There's plenty of hopeless cases of course, but I can also personally think of several people I know who maybe could have gone the other way if the choices hadn't been "people calling me a scumbag for voicing my fears" and "people calling me a hero for asking the important questions."

 

[elbows]

Which is fine on an individual level, especially for people who have to live with it being aimed at them, but fact is these people won't sort out their shitty opinions if they're permanently corralled into internet silos filled with other bigots. Imo as a movement we've repeatedly made errors by thinking we can aggressively exclude our way out of this - I can personally think of several people I know who maybe could have gone the other way if the choices hadn't been "people calling me a scumbag for voicing my fears" and "people calling me a hero for asking the important questions."

But people tend to exclude themselves from groups when they discover that their opinions are considered problematic by a significant proportion of the group. They want their bigotry to be met with agreement and approval, and its hard to get anywhere if they cant accept that there are problematic aspects to their views, they are tempted to go looking for a less challenging environment.

 

[smokedout]

Wtf at anyone thinking this is appropriate for children of any age.

And if you think it’s just the far right who have a problem with sexualised drag queen performances for children you’re deluded.

And I’d be very wary of letting young adolescents in my care be exposed to lap dancing, drag shows, burlesque or any other name you want to give the objectification of women. And I say that as someone who as an adolescent was involved in that world.

Adults- do what you like to get your kicks, I know I have my kinks But you won’t find me supporting the exposure of children to sexual material. Hard no from me. And I give no shits if that makes me a pearl clutching prude in your eyes.

Who is arguing that adolescents should be exposed to lap dancing? This was very mild burlesque as part of a much wider performance in front of babies who won't have any idea what's going on. If it was in a film I doubt it would even be PG.

 

[krtek a houby]

Wtf at anyone thinking this is appropriate for children of any age.

And if you think it’s just the far right who have a problem with sexualised drag queen performances for children you’re deluded.

And I’d be very wary of letting young adolescents in my care be exposed to lap dancing, drag shows, burlesque or any other name you want to give the objectification of women. And I say that as someone who as an adolescent was involved in that world.

Adults- do what you like to get your kicks, I know I have my kinks But you won’t find me supporting the exposure of children to sexual material. Hard no from me. And I give no shits if that makes me a pearl clutching prude in your eyes.

How bout Bugs Bunny in makeup and women's clothing?

 

[Rob Ray]

But people tend to exclude themselves from groups when they discover that their opinions are considered problematic

Can do, sure, and I'm certainly not saying that everyone's worth chasing to try and steer them away from a path they're set on. But I do think winning this particular fight involves getting people onside, and that involves a mix (God I get tired of saying "case by case") of approaches. It's more complicated, or should be, than just the switch being flicked and people being frozen out. Not that the internet in particular encourages this at all.

 

[elbows]

I think people are being very naive if they don't acknowledge that the queer/drag element has played a huge part on the confected outrage to this.

Some of the problems certainly seem to involve people who cant see queer culture in anything other than sexualised or misogynistic terms, never acknowledge it in any other way, cannot get past those angles. It doesnt mean anything to them beyond that, and thats a big issue.

 

[Edie]

Who is arguing that adolescents should be exposed to lap dancing? This was very mild burlesque as part of a much wider performance in front of babies who won't have any idea what's going on. If it was in a film I doubt it would even be PG.

Ick.

I’ll say it again, it’s a hard no for me when it comes to children and young adolescents being exposed to sexualised performances.