Do you consider yourself an audiophile?

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Oh hang on. You wrote:

"Everything you've ever written about this sort of stuff revolves around you saying things like "try a Rotel amp, they're more laid back" or "a marantz CD player is usually more forward sounding"

"Until you do a proper blind test you're wasting your time"

Re-read the thread. When I suggested listening to a variety of different systems at different price points some posters opined that the only valid means of assessing the sound of a system would be via ABX testing -you wrote of "proper blind tests".

If you are now accepting that gear doesn't all sound the same (oh no - now all amplifiers sound the same or the differences are so small as to be insignificant) then you will concede that Marantz amplifier can sound different to a Rotel amplifier and a host of other brands. I explained that using terms such as 'warm', 'open' (etc) is a non-technical means of describing a sound - I pointed out that you would explain such differences of sound in technical terms and I provided some crude examples for comparison.

If the issue isn't the gear then presumably your insistence that such differences can only truly be detected using blind tests is nonsense? Unless of course you have no faith in your own abilities not to arrive at an individual conclusion regarding the sound you prefer (quite subjectively of course). This explains:

"You pay more, you know what is being tested and when it's being changed, so you think they sound better".

CDs and amplifiers sound the same?

Incidentally, the guy behind the video (Ethan Winer) can be seen writing about the video and responsing to criticisms regarding the partisan nature of the video on the gearslutz.com forums. You are an audio professional so you may already be on the forum, but for others reading this thread it offers an alternative view of the issues he raises.

To conclude, I say to people buying gear that the most important factor to consider is how a system sounds to you. Does it get you closer to the music? Does it make you want to listen again and again to your favourite music format? If yes then great. The gear is a means to an end - and not the end in itself.

. . . . . But you think speaker cable makes a difference.
Also, the above post (and the others) show how you quite clearly don't even grasp what pretty much everyone else on this thread is talking about. I conclude that if you add the two together you are perhaps the last person that could wisely spend money on any form of electrical equipment let alone attempt lecture on any aspect sound quality.

 

[audiotech]

I've used bell wire and no difference.

The end.

 

[grosun]

For starters, nobody has said that "all gear sounds the same". What I have said is that all CD players sound the same, and that cables make no difference to the sound. I also personally think that amplifiers all sound the same, or to be more precise, any differences they may have are so small as to be insignificant.

I find this quite odd. I have to say from my personal experience, that's very much not been the case, both with amps & cd players. Yes yes, I concede that I have not blind-tested them, so it's possible that I'm fooling myself in some clever way but if so, I find it puzzling that sometimes the thing I expected (& wanted) to sound better just didn't...

I'm curious, are you utterly un-bothered as to what kind of cd player/amp you use at home then? Do you have a hifi system with expensive speakers perfectly positioned, connected to cheapo amp/cd player?

(I don't even want to step *near* the whole speaker wire thing, brr.. staying well away!)

 

[ViolentPanda]

Let me pose this question to you. You have stated that you have worked at Abbey Road studios and they "have some of the most crazy expensive (sic) shit there"........

Why do they use "crazy expensive shit" and not everyday equipment within the reach of the consumer? Setting the issue of room acoustics aside why would Abbey Road choose to use B&W speakers for example? If all gear sounds the same - as some appear to be suggesting on this thread - why do studios spend so much on having what they consider (personal perception?!) the best possible gear - and often the most expensive equipment?

He hasn't said "all gear sounds the same", he's said that the difference between interconnects is negligible.

Most studio "gear" is component based; those components can influence sound. Having built several fuzz-boxes and other effects over the years, and swapped transistors and other components for others of equal value, I can say that components make a difference to sound.
Cables are lengths of wire with plugs at either end that bridge component-based pieces of equipment. If they influence sound, the influence is infinitesimal.
Try studying psycho-acoustics if you want to know why you perceive your interconnects to sound better than other interconnects.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I find this quite odd. I have to say from my personal experience, that's very much not been the case, both with amps & cd players. Yes yes, I concede that I have not blind-tested them, so it's possible that I'm fooling myself in some clever way but if so, I find it puzzling that sometimes the thing I expected (& wanted) to sound better just didn't...

I'm curious, are you utterly un-bothered as to what kind of cd player/amp you use at home then? Do you have a hifi system with expensive speakers perfectly positioned, connected to cheapo amp/cd player?

(I don't even want to step *near* the whole speaker wire thing, brr.. staying well away!)

With audiophile hi-fi, there's a lot of subjective perception involved. I can't remember ever buying hi-fi separates for the way they "colour" sound. I want components that don't do that, and if you exclude tone controls, that's exactly what many hi-fi separates are built to do - reproduce without significant deviation.

 

[grosun]

With audiophile hi-fi, there's a lot of subjective perception involved. I can't remember ever buying hi-fi separates for the way they "colour" sound. I want components that don't do that, and if you exclude tone controls, that's exactly what many hi-fi separates are built to do - reproduce without significant deviation.

Hum, the thing is, most components will probably end up colouring the sound in some way or other; hearing precisely what happened in the studio (assuming a straightforward recording of live instruments) is going to be impossible anyway. So it's a matter of choosing what changes to the sound suit you best, no?

 

[teuchter]

Try studying psycho-acoustics if you want to know why you perceive your interconnects to sound better than other interconnects.

It's not really about psycho-acoustics. That would only come into play if there was an actual difference in output resulting from the use of one set of interconnects over another.

 

[Fictionist]

He hasn't said "all gear sounds the same", he's said that the difference between interconnects is negligible.

Most studio "gear" is component based; those components can influence sound. Having built several fuzz-boxes and other effects over the years, and swapped transistors and other components for others of equal value, I can say that components make a difference to sound.
Cables are lengths of wire with plugs at either end that bridge component-based pieces of equipment. If they influence sound, the influence is infinitesimal.
Try studying psycho-acoustics if you want to know why you perceive your interconnects to sound better than other interconnects.

So components can influence the sound. The quality of components might influence sound. The influence of cables is "infinitesimal".

So if one person can hear a difference between cables, can identify the fact that different cables are being used (and even the brand) - what does that say?

That shoots your suposed theory in to space no?

Tell me, what gear do you use?

 

[teuchter]

So if one person can hear a difference between cables, can identify the fact that different cables are being used (and even the brand) - what does that say?

But they can't.

Show us the evidence.

 

[teuchter]

http://www.asa.org.uk/Complaints-an...uss-Andrews-Accessories-Ltd/TF_ADJ_44177.aspx

 

[Fictionist]

But they can't.

Show us the evidence.

You provide evidence that it can't be done. Ever.

Use the cables I mentioned and use them in your system (assuming you have one?).

 

[Clair De Lune]

Never has a thread more resembled a bunch of guys wanking over a biscuit. Then arguing over what type of fuckinng biscuit it is and if perhaps a different kind of biscuit would have been more aproppriate.

 

[teuchter]

You provide evidence that it can't be done. Ever.

My claim is that no-one has ever been able to do it.

I can't prove that it can't be done ever.

The lack of any evidence of anyone having managed to do it suggests to me that no-one has ever been able to do it. Unless you are aware of some evidence that I haven't seen.

When I was younger and foolisher, I changed my bog standard interconnects for some "better" ones. I tried to convince myself that I could hear the difference, and that my money had been well spent, but the reality was that I couldn't.

In contrast, I've gone through various pairs of speakers, and very definitely heard a difference between them.

For this reason I advise anyone wanting to "upgrade" their system to spend their money on speakers and not silly cables.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

My claim is that no-one has ever been able to do it.

I can't prove that it can't be done ever.

The lack of any evidence of anyone having managed to do it suggests to me that no-one has ever been able to do it. Unless you are aware of some evidence that I haven't seen.

It's funny how much of this thread sounds like one about homeopathy...

 

[Beanburger]

It's funny how much of this thread sounds like one about homeopathy...

Are you suggesting it's the placebo effect?

 

[Fictionist]

My claim is that no-one has ever been able to do it.

I can't prove that it can't be done ever.

The lack of any evidence of anyone having managed to do it suggests to me that no-one has ever been able to do it. Unless you are aware of some evidence that I haven't seen.

When I was younger and foolisher, I changed my bog standard interconnects for some "better" ones. I tried to convince myself that I could hear the difference, and that my money had been well spent, but the reality was that I couldn't.

In contrast, I've gone through various pairs of speakers, and very definitely heard a difference between them.

For this reason I advise anyone wanting to "upgrade" their system to spend their money on speakers and not silly cables.

 

[teuchter]

It's funny how much of this thread sounds like one about homeopathy...

It's pretty much exactly the same thing.

 

[teuchter]

We gathered up a 5 of our audio buddies. We took my "old" Martin Logan SL-3 (not a bad speaker for accurate noise making) and hooked them up with Monster 1000 speaker cables (decent cables according to the audio press). We also rigged up 14 gauge, oxygen free Belden stranded copper wire with a simple PVC jacket. Both were 2 meters long. They were connected to an ABX switch box allowing blind fold testing. Volume levels were set at 75 Db at 1000K Hz. A high quality recording of smooth, trio, easy listening jazz was played (Piano, drums, bass). None of us had heard this group or CD before, therefore eliminating biases. The music was played. Of the 5 blind folded, only 2 guessed correctly which was the monster cable. (I was not one of them). This was done 7 times in a row! Keeping us blind folded, my brother switched out the Belden wire (are you ready for this) with simple coat hanger wire! Unknown to me and our 12 audiophile buddies, prior to the ABX blind test, he took apart four coat hangers, reconnectd them and twisted them into a pair of speaker cables. Connections were soldered. He stashed them in a closet within the testing room so we were not privy to what he was up to. This made for a pair of 2 meter cables, the exact length of the other wires. The test was conducted. After 5 tests, none could determine which was the Monster 1000 cable or the coat hanger wire. Further, when music was played through the coat hanger wire, we were asked if what we heard sounded good to us. All agreed that what was heard sounded excellent, however, when A-B tests occured, it was impossible to determine which sounded best the majority of the time and which wire was in use. Needless to say, after the blind folds came off and we saw what my brother did, we learned he was right...most of what manufactures have to say about their products is pure hype. It seems the more they charge, the more hyped it is.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15412&postcount=28

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I think Bee's point is that there aren't really any differences to be heard - certainly not because of cabling, and not really because of CD players or amps - and by doing blind tests you will find out that you cannot tell the difference between them, because there is no (appreciable) difference. When you are doing a non-blind test, the difference you hear is because you want there to be a difference, not because there is one.

Yep, spot on

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I'm curious, are you utterly un-bothered as to what kind of cd player/amp you use at home then? Do you have a hifi system with expensive speakers perfectly positioned, connected to cheapo amp/cd player?

At home I'm really not that bothered about the CD player, Speakers matter though. The amp just needs to be of a sufficient power to match the speakers (double the RMS rating).

Unless you go to the lengths of having a dedicated listening room, with proper acoustic treatment then you will make a bigger change to what you hear by moving 6 inches in your seat than you will by pretty much any other modification.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

So if one person can hear a difference between cables, can identify the fact that different cables are being used (and even the brand) - what does that say?

Well, at that point I'd day they should get in touch with James Randi and enjoy the million dollars they've just won.

 

[existentialist]

So components can influence the sound. The quality of components might influence sound. The influence of cables is "infinitesimal".

So if one person can hear a difference between cables, can identify the fact that different cables are being used (and even the brand) - what does that say?

That shoots your suposed theory in to space no?

Tell me, what gear do you use?

*sigh*

It is a shame that the intellectual honesty of someone who is prepared to describe the difference between different types of cable as "infinitesimal" rather than "non-existent" doesn't appear to be recognised by you, and certainly isn't being reflected in your responses.

On the terms you're debating on, the difference between interconnect X and interconnect Y is effectively non-existent for all interconnects that are of a sufficient basic standard (so don't expect wet string to work as well as copper, for example). But unobtanium-plated plugs, zero-oxygen copper, and all the other sucker gimmicks aimed at the hi-fi fetishist are just so much bollocks, and there isn't a blind test that's been conducted that will tell you differently, or you'd be able to cite it. And it is clear to anyone else reading this that the points being made about blind testing are being made to demonstrate this, not - as you rather disingenuously seem to be trying to suggest - to prove that all hi-fi equipment, anywhere in the world is the same.

There are aspects to a hi-fi system that will make a difference to how stuff sounds. Exotic interconnects aren't one of them.

FWIW, when I went to buy my hi-fi setup at Richer, the bloke in the shop was pretty honest - I probably got suckered into buying somewhat posher interconnects than I needed, but I was impressed that he was positively insisting I buy one of their cheap-as-chips ones for the video, rather than the somewhat better one that connects the DVD to the amp. TBH, I have no idea if one really is better than the other, any more than I know whether the biamp cable they were flogging off in the sale at 50p/metre would have been any better than the 13A mains solidcore I was planning to use, but which wouldn't have looked quite as nice.

I drew the line at bell wire, though. Perhaps someone will tell me that I got that wrong, but my rough calculations of the kind of (albeit transient) current loads involved in driving speakers made me suspicious that bell wire might not be quite meaty enough, on a purely Ohm's Law basis, for loud bachelor parties.

 

[existentialist]

Never has a thread more resembled a bunch of guys wanking over a biscuit. Then arguing over what type of fuckinng biscuit it is and if perhaps a different kind of biscuit would have been more aproppriate.

Hardly. There's a few doing that, but most of us seem to be making the point that, regardless of what biscuit it is, people who wank on biscuits tend to end up looking like pervy tossers.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

So if one person can hear a difference between cables, can identify the fact that different cables are being used (and even the brand) - what does that say?

Are you stupid as well as stupid?

The trouble is that you really really really can't identify any difference. It is impossible. You are experiencing a placebo after being conned into spending silly money on pointless cabling. It's not even balanced, you could kit your home set up up far far cheaper with professional grade equipment. It seems the market knows it has it's suckers. There is no proof that cables make a difference because they can't and don't. If they did you could use test tones and spectrum analyzers on the out put and publish the findings. It would be easy to show that they worked if they did. Funny how the cable companies don't?

And no amount of keeping your CD in the freezer is ever going to change those ones and zeros.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

At home I'm really not that bothered about the CD player, Speakers matter though. The amp just needs to be of a sufficient power to match the speakers (double the RMS rating)..

I've never 'really' thought about it before but all my speakers at home (apart from on my 5.1 players which came with their own speakers and inbuilt amp) are powered monitors. I think I was sick of my last amp playing up a little and at least this way I know speakers are perfectly matched.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

You provide evidence that it can't be done. Ever.

Use the cables I mentioned and use them in your system (assuming you have one?).

Why the stupid grins? You're making a huge tit of yourself.

You sound like a religious nut case deflecting the question away. "You can't PROVE god exists."

In fact you're worse than a religious nut case because no one can conclusively prove god does or doesn't exist. You on the other hand insist cables make a difference when there's loads of evidence stating that they make no difference whatsoever.

I think you've bought cables for a ridiculous price and your brain has fooled you into thinking they sound better. Your blatant denial in the face of evidence and your refusal to accept the views of two fully qualified sound engineers who've studied this, prove that you're totally deluded and are trying to justify money you've spent on cables.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So components can influence the sound. The quality of components might influence sound. The influence of cables is "infinitesimal".

Components are active electronic devices whose construction materials give variable properties. If I make a fuzzbox, I'll use germanium diodes in the signal chain because they clip the signal to give a warm distortion. I'll use other diodes to get harsh distortion.
A cable is a passive signal router designed to maximise the amount of signal that gets from point A to point B, that's all.
One has a fair potential to influence sound, the other has minimal potential to influence sound.

So if one person can hear a difference between cables, can identify the fact that different cables are being used (and even the brand) - what does that say?

That they're experiencing the placebo effect or that they're lying, as I've never witnessed or even heard of an audiophile consistently blindly identifying cables at a rate greater than chance.

That shoots your suposed theory in to space no?

No, it doesn't.

Tell me, what gear do you use?

Does it matter? If you're like most audiophiles/people who believe they can tell the difference between interconnects, you'll spout some blather about how my kit is too "consumer-market" to be able to appreciate the subtle differences of the interconnects.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hardly. There's a few doing that, but most of us seem to be making the point that, regardless of what biscuit it is, people who wank on biscuits tend to end up looking like pervy tossers.

And risk getting crumbs on their bell-end.

 

[stupid dogbot]

Are you stupid as well as stupid?

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

I like this thread. Would be nice if there were more crazy audiophiles on it though. Looks a bit like ganging up, but it's hard to argue fact against fiction(ist).