Do we support Insulate Britain?

[LDC]

I find it useful to start from the baseline of never criticising someone's protest, and then breaking that rule requires justification. Not least because, generally speaking, shit activism is better than no activism.

Assuming you need to have some definition of what your politics are though right, you don't just support any protest or actions no matter what? And then you have to have some coherence between your politics and the protests and actions?

I'm just not sure I can see much of a connecting line between my politics and Insulate Britain's road blocking. But I know things are messy, and movements can be contradictory, with 'good' and 'bad' bits, and the goal is to encourage the 'good' bits. But one way you do that is criticising the 'bad' bits surely? We're not publishing tracts in newspapers slagging them off, just thinking these things through on one thread on a small message board.

 

[mauvais]

Assuming you need to have some definition of what your politics are though right, you don't just support any protest or actions no matter what? And then you have to have some coherence between your politics and the protests and actions?

I'm just not sure I can see much of a connecting line between my politics and Insulate Britain's road blocking.

I don't need to support them as such; that's distinct from criticising them or supporting their detractors.

Even a protest where I actively disagree with the goal is at least interesting. It demonstrates a capacity to organise, possibly against the interests of a common enemy (e.g. the state). It's evidence of a power that could be channelled more constructively. Probably better to think about how to leverage that than how to deride it.

 

[MickiQ]

They could start breaking into people's houses and illicitly installing insulation like Robert de Niro in Brazil, but I suspect that'd be quite difficult to organise?

I insulated mine out of my own pocket, If they broke in and left a refund cheque on the kitchen table I would probably take a much more supportive view of them.

 

[Sue]

Take the briefest look at the rich history of human protest. It's not a tapestry of perfect, universally applauded schemes, is it? Usually it's clumsy and grubby and contentious.

'Counterproductive' is subjective. Will Insulate Britain get what they want? Is what they want even remotely the answer? In my uninformed opinion, probably not on either count. But do they further normalise climate activism? Do they encourage others to do better? Maybe. So in a different scope it's no longer counterproductive, is it?

An example of a shit action that was counterproductive was the XR tube action.

Wrong target, wrong strategy, unclear what they were hoping to achieve by it. (And I imagine the people affected by it now think XR are complete tossers.)

Would doing nothing have been better on that occasion? Yes, yes it would.

Extinction Rebellion protesters dragged from Tube train roof

Extinction Rebellion says it will "take stock" of the reaction to the action for future protests.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[chilango]

I don't agree. If shit activism turns people off what you're trying to achieve, surely it's better to work out what non-shit activism looks like before cracking on?

Sometimes doing nothing is definitely better than doing something if that something is rubbish/counterproductive.

Absolutely.

If that shit activism:

a) reduces the capacity of those activists in other, better, actions.
b) pushes people who would otherwise be moving towards starting take (better?) action away
c) the action itself materially harms whatever is being defended.

I'm not sure any if those apply to IB.

I don't think it's drawing activists and energy away from other, better, actions (at the moment)

I don't there's another, better, campaign in wings that people are being driven away from.

I have loads of reservations and criticisms of IB (and XR).

Would I do this? No.

Would I advocate or encourage others to do so? No.

Would I prefer something else? Yes.

But, still, I continue to support it.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I wonder if them suspending their action has anything to do with reports that paperwork is being completed to fast-track some of them to court, and off to prison.

I bet once a few find themselves being locked-up, the other couple of dozen will melt away.

Insulate Britain announces it's suspending its campaign of 'civil resistance' in letter to PM

The protest group, which has been causing chaos by blocking major roads around London in recent weeks, said it would suspend the campaign "ahead of COP26".

news.sky.com

 

[killer b]

Yes, the same principle applies to insulating homes. Perhaps civil servants are as we speak carefully working out a scheme that would be messed up if the government bounced them into pushing out some half-baked strategy in response to people sitting on motorways touting some half-baked demands.

let's just sit tight and wait for the civil servants to rescue us, lads.

 

[platinumsage]

I wonder if them suspending their action has anything to do with reports that paperwork is being completed to fast-track some of them to court, and off to prison.

I bet once a few find themselves being locked-up, the other couple of dozen will melt away.

Insulate Britain announces it's suspending its campaign of 'civil resistance' in letter to PM

The protest group, which has been causing chaos by blocking major roads around London in recent weeks, said it would suspend the campaign "ahead of COP26".

news.sky.com

Probably also due to the increasing willingness of the public to take direct action against the protesters I'd have thought. Some of them didn't look too comfortable the last few days.

 

[MickiQ]

An example of a shit action that was counterproductive was the XR tube action.

Wrong target, wrong strategy, unclear what they were hoping to achieve by it. (And I imagine the people affected by it now think XR are complete tossers.)

Would doing nothing have been better on that occasion? Yes, yes it would.

Extinction Rebellion protesters dragged from Tube train roof

Extinction Rebellion says it will "take stock" of the reaction to the action for future protests.

www.bbc.co.uk

It's slightly weird watching that knowing that somewhere in that crowd are at least 2 people I know, my memory is strong though. I thought they were late in on Wed but 17th Oct 2019 was a Thu.
memory fading is a sign of getting older though.

 

[Raheem]

If I had it my way all Urban polls would henceforth be conducted in this manner:

View attachment 292665

The paramilitary wing of Kraftwerk.

 

[MickiQ]

Probably also due to the increasing willingness of the public to take direct action against the protesters I'd have thought. Some of them didn't look too comfortable the last few days.

community driven activism cuts both ways

 

[mauvais]

An example of a shit action that was counterproductive was the XR tube action.

Wrong target, wrong strategy, unclear what they were hoping to achieve by it. (And I imagine the people affected by it now think XR are complete tossers.)

Would doing nothing have been better on that occasion? Yes, yes it would.

Extinction Rebellion protesters dragged from Tube train roof

Extinction Rebellion says it will "take stock" of the reaction to the action for future protests.

www.bbc.co.uk

Again I think, holistically, I disagree. Life at the current level of convenience is fairly obviously not sustainable, so disruption is inevitable, whether now and later. Embrace it before a much bigger force presents you with it in a way that you really don't like.

I would love to see a less shit version of XR engage the masses, but until then, someone's doing something.

The question this inevitably confronts you with is this: what are you going to do about it instead? Hope for better? Not enough, is it?

 

[cupid_stunt]

Probably also due to the increasing willingness of the public to take direct action against the protesters I'd have thought. Some of them didn't look too comfortable the last few days.

Yeah, that as well, because so far the general public have been fairly restrained, but sooner or later some of protesters are likely to get a kicking.

 

[hitmouse]

Absolutely.

If that shit activism...

Is there a version of Godwin's Law about how long a thread about activism can go on for before someone posts that bit from As We See It? Or something from Give Up Activism, one or the other.

 

[mauvais]

I guess that my forthcoming unveiling of The Urban75 Workers' Truck Bomb is going to be met with some dismay.

Oh well, back to work.

 

[chilango]

Is there a version of Godwin's Law about how long a thread about activism can go on for before someone posts that bit from As We See It? Or something from Give Up Activism, one or the other.

* deletes post *

 

[hitmouse]

Also, shit, I'm sure I remember seeing something really interesting about the triangle of movements being inclusive, democratic, and politically coherent, and how it's difficult/impossible to have all three - does anyone know/remember the thing I'm on about?

 

[BillRiver]

Again I think, holistically, I disagree. Life at the current level of convenience is fairly obviously not sustainable, so disruption is inevitable, whether now and later. Embrace it before a much bigger force presents you with it in a way that you really don't like.

I would love to see a less shit version of XR engage the masses, but until then, someone's doing something.

The question this inevitably confronts you with is this: what are you going to do about it instead? Hope for better? Not enough, is it?

I don't have any hope re climate change. I ran out of that many moons ago.

Extinction Rebellion didn't give me any hope, and Insulate Britain have not either.

I don't have a magic answer or an inspired protest to offer, I only have doom and despair.

 

[Sue]

Again I think, holistically, I disagree. Life at the current level of convenience is fairly obviously not sustainable, so disruption is inevitable, whether now and later. Embrace it before a much bigger force presents you with it in a way that you really don't like.

Targetting people who're already doing 'the right thing' by taking public transport by disrupting that public transport? Completely ridiculous.

 

[Raheem]

Targetting people who're already doing 'the right thing' by taking public transport by disrupting that public transport? Completely ridiculous.

Which I think is widely recognised. But it's one example out of hundreds.

 

[Sue]

Which I think is widely recognised. But it's one example out of hundreds.

Well hopefully. But it was more a point about the view that 'shit activism is better than doing nothing'.

 

[Raheem]

Well hopefully. But it was more a point about the view that 'shit activism is better than doing nothing'.

Getting it wrong once in a while is inevitable.

 

[souljacker]

I support them. Aren't protests supposed to disrupt? If I rang my boss and told him I was late because the road was blocked by protesters, I'd expect him to understand just like if I was late because there was a crash and the road was blocked. It sucks but then not as bad as climate change sucks.

 

[LDC]

Again I think, holistically, I disagree. Life at the current level of convenience is fairly obviously not sustainable, so disruption is inevitable, whether now and later. Embrace it before a much bigger force presents you with it in a way that you really don't like.

I would love to see a less shit version of XR engage the masses, but until then, someone's doing something.

The question this inevitably confronts you with is this: what are you going to do about it instead? Hope for better? Not enough, is it?

Disruption as a measure of action success is a dangerous road to go down though. Disruption to what, and who does it impact, and to what end?

If a logic of disruption as a sole metric generally is followed then people would be taking down random power stations etc.

Also agree, my/our support or not is largely irrelevant currently.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't have any hope re climate change. I ran out of that many moons ago.

Extinction Rebellion didn't give me any hope, and Insulate Britain have not either.

I don't have a magic answer or an inspired protest to offer, I only have doom and despair.

yeh i think that the situation is now no longer manageable, that things have gone too far in places like siberia. so yeh by all means let's reduce emissions to zero and start hoovering co2 out of the atmosphere. and maybe - just maybe - it won't all go to shit in a handcart. but let's not pretend that everything will be tickety-boo even if we pull down our emissions by the end of the decade.

 

[Flavour]

I don't have any hope re climate change. I ran out of that many moons ago.

Extinction Rebellion didn't give me any hope, and Insulate Britain have not either.

I don't have a magic answer or an inspired protest to offer, I only have doom and despair.

Sadly that is precisely what the enemy want: for you to give up, to accept as inevitable the very worst, to stop fighting.

 

[Pickman's model]

Sadly that is precisely what the enemy want: for you to give up, to accept as inevitable the very worst, to stop fighting.

and who is the enemy? how are you going to fight the chinese government to close all their coal plants and substitute renewables?

 

[magneze]

Conversely, in History the majority of Scientists have agreed on one thing and a minority on another, and it turned out that the minority were correct. One always has to be objective where one can be. In truth most say it is and some say it isnt.. Thats a fact.

Have any of those been existential threats to all life on the planet?

 

[AmateurAgitator]

You can't criticise them for minor consequences either. An ambulance can't get through (not even true, IIRC). So what?

Minor consequences? Are you sure about that? You need to do better than just IIRC aswell. Where's your evidence to back up what you are saying? What is your source?

And is it true that an ambulance was obstructed or not?

 

[magneze]

Successive governments aren't able to even build enough homes to house the population let alone insulate the current housing stock. It's just too challenging for them

They are able, it's the willing that's the problem.