Do we support Insulate Britain?

[Serene]

How long are they saying the Earth has before we all freeze to death? In years.

 

[Pickman's model]

Let’s leave the anti cyclist stuff to the cesspit that is the anti-car propaganda thread

I wasn't being entirely serious

 

[Cid]

There is at least the slightest chance of a miracle now, so obvs even that slight chance should be fought for. But yeh if facing the facts and realising the desperation of our position - and the utter inadequacy of anything being proposed remedying matters - is defeatism then I'm a defeatist. I'm not seeing you coming out with anything which contradicts my view that things have gone too far to make success in this a likely outcome.

That's not defeatism though is it? Defeatism isn't realising the fundamental desperation of a situation, it's having that realisation and saying that action against it is pointless. That's what I'm arguing against; when someone says there's no point in X action because of Y external force, that is defeatism. Miracles don't come from the void; they come from labour, from people working with belief that what they're doing might just yield something, with hope. Most of those might just end with some modest improvement in how we live now, I certainly don't think IB would achieve much more than that even were they successful. Many will just be dead ends. If there is a solution, it's likely to be a combination of many different efforts from many different fields. But fundamentally when you invoke something like the China boogeyman as a reason not to act, you're not just saying the situation is desperate, you're saying it's desperate and we might as well just give up.

 

[Pickman's model]

That's not defeatism though is it? Defeatism isn't realising the fundamental desperation of a situation, it's having that realisation and saying that action against it is pointless. That's what I'm arguing against; when someone says there's no point in X action because of Y external force, that is defeatism. Miracles don't come from the void; they come from labour, from people working with belief that what they're doing might just yield something, with hope. Most of those might just end with some modest improvement in how we live now, I certainly don't think IB would achieve much more than that even were they successful. Many will just be dead ends. If there is a solution, it's likely to be a combination of many different efforts from many different fields. But fundamentally when you invoke something like the China boogeyman as a reason not to act, you're not just saying the situation is desperate, you're saying it's desperate and we might as well just give up.

Oh dear. I never said China was a reason not to act.

 

[Cid]

Oh dear. I never said China was a reason not to act.

Well, people can read back over the conversation and come to their own conclusion, in the highly unlikely event they want to.

 

[BigTom]

aren't they about to ban cars from the centre of Birmingham?

No.
There are three things which are happening/about to happen:

1) Clean Air Zone - if you want to go inside the ring road you need to pay I think £8/day unless you have an engine which meets a fairly easy emissions standard. This is already in place.

2) City Centre Segmentation - This will stop private cars from driving through the city centre, except on the A38 expressway (see next point). It involves creating a "giant Low Traffic Neighbourhood (LTN)" which means that filters will be placed so that drivers can access any place in the city centre but cannot drive through it. The ring road is used to go around to access a specific place if that's what you need. This will not stop anyone from being able to drive anywhere, just change the routes that are accessible to drivers. This is being put in place at the moment, some filters are already in place, others are under consultation to complete the work.

3) A38 expressway closure - This is being proposed, not even consulted on yet, and would close the A38 expressway to motor vehicles, I haven't looked at the full proposals yet, traffic would be diverted around the ring road rather than being able to cut through the centre as it is now. I think the expressway will be turned into a cycle way but tbh the overpasses and tunnels won't be very nice to cycle on anyway and I'd rather see the tunnels filled in and have surface level cycle lane on a bus only road, with wider pavements than exist now.

But it's important to note that none of these ban cars from the city centre at all, or even stop anyone from accessing anything by car they already can (there's no pedestrianisation proposals). You won't be able to drive through the city centre anymore, that's all.

 

[elbows]

Oh dear. I never said China was a reason not to act.

The picture there is quite interesting these days.

Chinese coal prices hit record high and power cuts continue

Flooding in northern China is hitting a major coal production center hard, sending coal prices soaring and complicating efforts by Beijing to tackle ongoing power shortages.

edition.cnn.com

 

[Elpenor]

3) I think the expressway will be turned into a cycle way but tbh the overpasses and tunnels won't be very nice to cycle on anyway and I'd rather see the tunnels filled in and have surface level cycle lane on a bus only road, with wider pavements than exist now.

The tunnels aren’t very nice at all to drive through. Agree they should be filled in.

 

[BigTom]

The tunnels aren’t very nice at all to drive through. Agree they should be filled in.

The whole inner ring road was awful, I'm glad it's mostly gone. This is basically the last section.

Some of us here might remember a Reclaim the Streets protest for the G8 Birmingham 1998 meet, held on masshouse circus (i think), the huge roundabout with the bulkring markets in the middle of it.

I'm sure there were many complaints about the disruption that caused.

That whole roadway no longer exists and it's almost impossible to remember what it was like now, even looking at photos.

The old bullring is missed for sure, the new one is just a bland shipping mall, but the area is soooo much nicer to walk around and now they are taking out the 6 lane road down digbeth high street and putting in tram lines, it'll be improved even further.

 

[elbows]

The old bullring is missed for sure, the new one is just a bland shipping mall, but the area is soooo much nicer to walk around and now they are taking out the 6 lane road down digbeth high street and putting in tram lines, it'll be improved even further.

I've not been since the Custard Factory days! I'd like to see it some time, will probably wait till that part of the tram is done, whats the schedule for it? Cheers!

 

[ska invita]

They don't have to achieve those demands to achieve something though do they? If insulating the housing stock of the UK is pushed up the political agenda - and it's certainly something a lot more people are aware of now - then they've achieved something. a lot more than they'd have been able to achieve by going and waving some placards outside downing street.

yeah this, whatever else you can say about it they've managed to make the words Insulate Britain into a Thing and on the news every day for a couple of weeks in the run up to COP26 and im sure they'll be back during it and in the lead up to the big 'global day of action' on November 6th.

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Theres no way the government is ever going to bow to their demands, but the very notion of Insulating Britain is now much more of a thing than it was before, and there is a likelihood that the notion will become more central over the coming years. and it'll have been worth the traffic jams

 

[Mr.Bishie]

I've not been since the Custard Factory days! I'd like to see it some time, will probably wait till that part of the tram is done, whats the schedule for it? Cheers!

Custard Factory. Now there’s a blast from the past!

 

[chilango]

Some of us here might remember a Reclaim the Streets protest for the G8 Birmingham 1998 meet, held on masshouse circus (i think), the huge roundabout with the bulkring markets in the middle of it.

I'm sure there were many complaints about the disruption that caused.

Bizarrely, the day after the RTS I was approached by someone from the Birmingham tourism people doing surveys to see if the city had made money from the influx of protesters.

 

[elbows]

Bizarrely, the day after the RTS I was approached by someone from the Birmingham tourism people doing surveys to see if the city had made money from the influx of protesters.

if Sunak hears that the activists activities help to stimulate the economy, he'll be tempted to launch a scheme that provokes them to go further.

Heat Out To Help Out.

 

[BillRiver]

Some of us here might remember a Reclaim the Streets protest for the G8 Birmingham 1998 meet, held on masshouse circus (i think), the huge roundabout with the bulkring markets in the middle of it.

I remember it very well.

I was doing my nurse training up in Huddersfield. I'd done a 9 hour shift on placement in the ICU, then done an overnight shift at the local Samaritans, before getting the coach down to Birmingham early that morning.

A very memorable day. I'm now happily reminiscing and marvelling at how detailed my memories of it are. My short term memory is deeply dysfunctional yet I remember so much of that day, 23 years later!

 

[two sheds]

The old bullring is missed for sure, the new one is just a bland shipping mall, but the area is soooo much nicer to walk around and now they are taking out the 6 lane road down digbeth high street and putting in tram lines, it'll be improved even further.

New one? The one I remember was 70s?, waiting for a bus with diesel fumes surrounded. Then I went back once in 80s? did have bland shopping mall but you could actually breathe and would want to wander up and look at nearby attractive looking shops (that I couldn't afford but that's not the point).

I'll swear I remember walking round the jewellers/watchmakers area in Birmingham - loads of old terraced houses with real charm. I think they pulled it down though .

 

[Wilf]

Not had chance to read this entire thread but some really shit thinking on display here.

I find it useful to start from the baseline of never criticising someone's protest, and then breaking that rule requires justification. Not least because, generally speaking, shit activism is better than no activism.

There is or was a certain poster on here that armchair critiqued stuff the entire time - I would have done blah, they haven't given any focus to blah - and well, just fuck off and protest yourself then eh? Not to mention the myriad sects of the left that will disown anything that isn't fully conformant with their one true path.

You can't criticise them for minor consequences either. An ambulance can't get through (not even true, IIRC). So what? The revolution will not be convenient. Even if you played this exactly right, someone will invent something to try and discredit you. Don't fucking go with it, FFS. And if it alienates people, even the majority, are we supposed to give a fuck? Again - you want what, focus grouped mild reformism? You know what else alienates the public? Dying in a flood or a fire.

And you definitely can't criticise them for enraging the government who bring in laws about it. You've got to be thick as mince to utter that.

You can criticise them - to an extent - for stuff like being long term holistically counterproductive, or just a self-indulgent waste of energy. I really don't have a very high opinion of XR for this kind of reason. But I'm still not totally comfortable slagging them off. They're doing something that I'm not. It could be much better but that's more on everybody else to muster that than it is on them to get it right.

TL;DR: get a fucking grip you liberal dickheads.

This.

Must admit I, ahem, insulate myself from the news, so apart from knowing a group called insulate britain were stopping the traffic, I know nowt about the group itself. From what I've read here, I'll go with the criticisms of it being middle class and, particularly, disconnected to people's lives. That's what I'd want to see, links to relevant unions and community campaigns around austerity and fuel poverty. That's a way to link climate change to class. But ultimately, fucking hell, this a world level disaster, genuinely, a catastrophe for now and a catastrophe for the future. In that context I'm not that worried about someone's commute.

 

[Saul Goodman]

But ultimately, fucking hell, this a world level disaster, genuinely, a catastrophe for now and a catastrophe for the future. In that context I'm not that worried about someone's commute.

Loft insulation is a world level disaster?
The arrogance of some people is astounding, thinking they can put even the slightest dent in the CO2 problem by throwing money at poorly insulated houses.
There are answers to the problems we're facing but loft insulation isn't one of them. Desalination of sea water, coupled with irrigation and planting of deserts. They're the things that will save us in the long term, and oil companies, along with all other mega corps, should be forced to pay for it. Placing the onus on the individual is merely a con. It's classic smoke and mirrors bullshit to make people believe that their individual actions can somehow offset the actions of greedy capitalists... Look over there!

 

[BigTom]

New one? The one I remember was 70s?, waiting for a bus with diesel fumes surrounded. Then I went back once in 80s? did have bland shopping mall but you could actually breathe and would want to wander up and look at nearby attractive looking shops (that I couldn't afford but that's not the point).

I'll swear I remember walking round the jewellers/watchmakers area in Birmingham - loads of old terraced houses with real charm. I think they pulled it down though .

That was the old bullring. By the time i knew it in the late 90s it was probably quite run down compared to the 70s/80s. Units were cheap so shops and stalls reflected that with affordable shops. The new bullring was built in the late 00s i think and is selfridges and debenhams. Looking to sell to a different group of people imo.

The change was necessary and overall good but the new markets were never the same as the old ones.

I've not been since the Custard Factory days! I'd like to see it some time, will probably wait till that part of the tram is done, whats the schedule for it? Cheers!

The roadworks on the high street should finish summer next year but the tram line is not scheduled to be fully open until 2025 so i don't know what's going on there, maybe the section to link up the high street to the rest of the network is going to take that time.

 

[1927]

If we banned private cars the emergency services would be able to get everywhere quicker.

But if we banned private cars the economy would grind to a halt and there would be no taxes to pay for emergency services.

 

[maomao]

But if we banned private cars the economy would grind to a halt and there would be no taxes to pay for emergency services.

The economy probably needs to come to a halt. The vast majority of things people call 'work' are pointless.

 

[NoXion]

Banning private cars is exactly the kind of wildly impractical authoritarian nonsense that gets environmentalists ignored by normal people. Because it's quite obviously indicative of a desire to reshape society according to some hippie vision, rather than any earnest proposal for curbing pollution or carbon emissions.

If someone proposed banning trains because the collectivist nature of their operation is communism by stealth, they'd be rightly dismissed as a wingnut.

 

[1927]

The economy probably needs to come to a halt. The vast majority of things people call 'work' are pointless.

Theres a bit of a problem with that idea.

 

[maomao]

Theres a bit of a problem with that idea.

There are several. And many more with continuing as we are.

 

[killer b]

The current shape of society is one that can't sustain human life for much longer - not sure why there's a problem with people wanting to reshape it.

 

[chilango]

As, probably, the most vocal proponent of "banning cars" I should clarify before we get too de-railed.

I'm not demanding that the Government ban cars. I would like a shift in social culture so that private car use is no longer celebrated or defended but rather is widely regarded as a harmful act that people should strive a lot harder to avoid.

However...simply raising the idea of "banning cars" is a useful way of focussing attention on policy around transport.

Finally, car use as it currently stands is not only harmful, but also unsustainable. Incremental moves towards banning cars are already underway and have been for some time. The question is who drives* these moves? Communities or Capital?


*See what I did there?

 

[LDC]

This.

Must admit I, ahem, insulate myself from the news, so apart from knowing a group called insulate britain were stopping the traffic, I know nowt about the group itself. From what I've read here, I'll go with the criticisms of it being middle class and, particularly, disconnected to people's lives. That's what I'd want to see, links to relevant unions and community campaigns around austerity and fuel poverty. That's a way to link climate change to class. But ultimately, fucking hell, this a world level disaster, genuinely, a catastrophe for now and a catastrophe for the future. In that context I'm not that worried about someone's commute.

But it's not really about delaying the commute for individuals that people that are saying is the problem is it? It's about whether pissing off some people by blocking traffic (and the accompanying 'bad press') is on balance a negative impact that's worth having to help achieve the aims of the action and the group (and wider change in society)?

And, if it is such an unfolding global catastrophe, why are they doing such lame and well behaved actions and protests? Their stated reason is to maintain 'public support' but somehow that doesn't seem to be a factor is this type of action?

It's 'be very passive and polite' but then do something that pisses off people and has no real impact in reducing carbon emissions or directly achieving the goals you want, which makes it a glorified publicity stunt, not direct action.

 

[chilango]

But it's not really about delaying the commute for individuals that people that are saying is the problem is it? It's about whether pissing off some people by blocking traffic (and the accompanying 'bad press') is on balance a negative impact that's worth having to help achieve the aims of the action and the group (and wider change in society)?

And, if it is such an unfolding global catastrophe, why are they doing such lame and well behaved actions and protests? Their stated reason is to maintain 'public support' but somehow that doesn't seem to be a factor is this type of action?

It's 'be very passive and polite' but then do something that pisses off people and has no real impact in reducing carbon emissions or directly achieving the goals you want, which makes it a glorified publicity stunt, not direct action.

* Mutters something Leninist about strategy and tactics. *

...yeah, it's a core problem with this kind of thing. The missing piece - which I don't think any of us have right now - is how to bridge the gap between these actions and mass collective acts of refusal.

 

[LDC]

Also (and it's really obvious) but so much of what we think on stuff like this is shaped and directed by the media and what they say (even if we try and avoid it, or know it's biased and inaccurate) it's important to remember that if we're antagonistic or unsupportive of this action (and others like it), it is quite likely to be in some part that we've absorbed the negative press about it.

 

[chilango]

Also (and it's really obvious) but so much of what we think on stuff like this is shaped and directed by the media and what they say (even if we try and avoid it, or know it's biased and inaccurate) it's important to remember that if we're antagonistic or unsupportive of this action (and others like it), it is quite likely to be in some part that we've absorbed the negative press about it.

...and for all the - correct - criticisms we might have about Insulate Britain, even the perfect campaign would face the same manufactured opposition.