Do we support Insulate Britain?

[magneze]

The push on diesels was years ago, and whilst new diesel sales will be stopped, they are not banning those already on the road.

Same thing could happen for private cars.

 

[magneze]

More likely is that people will be priced out of the market in stages, and norms and expectations will shift as a result. I dont rule out more dramatic action because I cannot rule out various shocks and crises that turn priorities and resource allocation on their head.

Also partial bans could be implemented. In cities for instance. Fairly easy to see this coming imho.

 

[elbows]

Was it not already in the Tory manifesto at the last election? I thought it was but I may be mistaken.

I havent checked but such things often pop up and there have been real subsidised programmes over the years. Complaints are often of the form that the commitments dont even begin to go far enough. I expect it is on the agenda to accelerate this stuff quite a lot this decade.

 

[killer b]

aren't they about to ban cars from the centre of Birmingham?

 

[cupid_stunt]

Banning cars from city/town centres is one thing, banning all private car ownership is totally different.

 

[magneze]

There you go. Not possible in my lifetime lol. Already happening.

 

[elbows]

The pandemic offered various wake up calls for those who had unwisely decided that there is no need to think the unthinkable. Never say never! Otherwise my opportunities to be a tedious smartarse will persist.

 

[killer b]

Banning cars from city/town centres is one thing, banning all private car ownership is totally different.

as far as I can tell you're the person who's raised this, and I'm not really sure why.

 

[cupid_stunt]

There you go. Not possible in my lifetime lol. Already happening.

Perhaps you need reading glasses?

 

[Pickman's model]

So you want people to 'strain minds and muscles' to deliver a miracle, whilst also giving in to abject defeatism. Seems sensible.

There is at least the slightest chance of a miracle now, so obvs even that slight chance should be fought for. But yeh if facing the facts and realising the desperation of our position - and the utter inadequacy of anything being proposed remedying matters - is defeatism then I'm a defeatist. I'm not seeing you coming out with anything which contradicts my view that things have gone too far to make success in this a likely outcome.

 

[hitmouse]

Not annoy working class people trying to get to work to feed their families. Something these cunts don't have to worry about.

I live next door to Boris Johnson and all these protests outside Boris Johnson's house are very inconvenient for me when I'm trying to get to my job as a doctor at a hospital for terminally ill and very cute kittens.

Sounds like you've got entirely the wrong impression about this century and the magnitude of the transition that looks likely.

This is not the same as me making a confident claim about when such a ban would be sure to happen. But I am loudly suggesting that to demonstrate such certainty about what will be normal in 30-50 years is incredibly stupid.

The pandemic offered various wake up calls for those who had unwisely decided that there is no need to think the unthinkable. Never say never! Otherwise my opportunities to be a tedious smartarse will persist.

Yeah, it's weird seeing this "easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism/cars" stuff still persists after a year or two when it suddenly became more or less illegal to go outside.

 

[cupid_stunt]

as far as I can tell you're the person who's raised this, and I'm not really sure why.

It was raised on this thread earlier this morning, long before I commented on it, and has also been raised across various other threads.

So, do excuse me for filing your latest observation with your classic comment that Insulate Britain isn't campaigning to reduce pollution.

 

[magneze]

Perhaps you need reading glasses?

Perhaps re-read the thread.

 

[Pickman's model]

Was it not already in the Tory manifesto at the last election? I thought it was but I may be mistaken.

They don't mention insulation once in their manifesto but even if they did you can't trust a Johnson pledge

 

[Saul Goodman]

I live next door to Boris Johnson and all these protests outside Boris Johnson's house are very inconvenient for me when I'm trying to get to my job as a doctor at a hospital for terminally ill and very cute kittens.

Move house. Win win.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Direct Action pissing people off.

(Shock/horror)

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Not annoy working class people trying to get to work to feed their families.

lol

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Move house. Win win.

lol

 

[Pickman's model]

Direct Action pissing people off.

(Shock/horror)

Back in the day the slogan was direct action gets the goods. I can't see that being the case here, in part because there's a disconnect for me at least between what they're doing and why they say they're doing it. Leaving the pissed off people to one side, I think the notion this sort of limited blocking roads will lead to a great change in policy is daft. Either ramp it up and block roads across the country preferably simultaneously or don't bother.

 

[chilango]

Car bans

List of car-free islands - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[elbows]

There is at least the slightest chance of a miracle now, so obvs even that slight chance should be fought for. But yeh if facing the facts and realising the desperation of our position - and the utter inadequacy of anything being proposed remedying matters - is defeatism then I'm a defeatist. I'm not seeing you coming out with anything which contradicts my view that things have gone too far to make success in this a likely outcome.

If it helps then we can always try to separate two sides of the same coin.

For example I dont make any claims about the extent to which climate doom will be mitigated. But there is also the energy supply picture and what sort of ways of life people will be able to sustain for years. I expect a mix of successes and failures on the energy transition front.

I do think its possible to not be optimistic, and to recognise the magnitude of the challenge and the pain and changes that even success would bring, without automatically ending up being defined by defeatism. I look back to an era of 'peak oil awareness' and I was interested in all the aspects of it, but I couldnt help but notice that some people were only attracted to it because they were in some ways attracted to the idea of collapse. And thats an interesting subject, especially for people that hate the current status quo, but I think its possible to give such aspects a fair amount of attention without losing all the other aspects which combine to make the real full picture. The full spectrum of possibilities looks very messy but its still possible to gawp at it without the utter doom aspects obscuring everything else from view. Some people also lost interest in peak oil etc because a sense of imminency was required in order to hold their attention, and things on that front didnt collapse withint he timescales they envisaged. I'd rather find a way to frame things as long emergencies with action taking place over long time periods, albeit still with particular moments of acute woe.

I've certainly used the pandemic to help calibrate my senses on this. Trying to get the balance right, not being afraid to point out impending doom without forgetting the ways that life have a habit of carrying on to whatever degree people can manage. And that will be the case even if we end up in a situation where the god of growth dies, eliminating the economic order which we are accustomed to and reducing the total population of the planet back down to levels seen before we harnessed thousands of years of crushed ex-life as fuel, fertiliser etc. eg if the 'Green revolution in agriculture' seen last century comes undone then that will be some heavy shit right there. But I still wouldnt let it get in the way of trying to fix as much as possible.

And I need to steady my nerve because we've been through a period where terms like 'sustainable' lacked real bite, since we hadnt reached a point where the unsustainable could not be sustained for a moment longer. And we might expect 'sustainable' to get teeth via a serious of shocks that shake away complacency. Under such conditions, I will be tempted to sing songs about the sky falling in, but will probably have to come to terms with shit and carry on.

 

[killer b]

It was raised on this thread earlier this morning, long before I commented on it, and has also been raised across various other threads.

So, do excuse me for filing your latest observation with your classic comment that Insulate Britain isn't campaigning to reduce pollution.

You're right, chilango mentioned it in passing.

This is a really odd argument tbh. Do you think environmental campaigners shouldn't have ambitious demands? Because I dunno if you've noticed but the world is burning and the only solutions that could have any impact on that have to be really fucking ambitious. Ambitious way beyond 'lets insulate the houses of the country' and 'lets stop using private cars'. But for you this just seems to be some nihilistic internet point scoring thing. Not sure I can be bothered tbh.

 

[Pickman's model]

If it helps then we can always try to separate two sides of the same coin.

For example I dont make any claims about the extent to which climate doom will be mitigated. But there is also the energy supply picture and what sort of ways of life people will be able to sustain for years. I expect a mix of successes and failures on the energy transition front.

I do think its possible to not be optimistic, and to recognise the magnitude of the challenge and the pain and changes that even success would bring, without automatically ending up being defined by defeatism. I look back to an era of 'peak oil awareness' and I was interested in all the aspects of it, but I couldnt help but notice that some people were only attracted to it because they were in some ways attracted to the idea of collapse. And thats an interesting subject, especially for people that hate the current status quo, but I think its possible to give such aspects a fair amount of attention without losing all the other aspects which combine to make the real full picture. The full spectrum of possibilities looks very messy but its still possible to gawp at it without the utter doom aspects removing everything else from view.

I've certainly sued the pandemic to help calibrate my senses on this. Trying to get the balance right, not being afraid to point out impending doom without forgetting the ways that life has a habit of carrying on. And that will be the case even if we end up in a situation where the god of growth dies, eliminating the economic order which we are accustomed to and reducing the total population of the planet back down to levels seen before we harnessed thousands of years of crushed ex-life as fuel, fertiliser etc. eg if the 'Green revolution in agriculture' seen last century comes undone then that will be some heavy shit right there. But I still wouldnt let it get in the way of trying to fix as much as possible.

And I need to steady my nerve because we've been through a period where terms like sustainable' liked real bite, since we hadnt reached a point where the unsustainable could not be sustained for a moment longer. And we might expect 'sustainable' to get teeth via a serious of shocks that shake away complacency. Under such conditions, I will be tempted to sing songs about the sky falling in, but will probably have to come to terms with shit and carry on.

Cheers - i think you have to try even if the result may be very likely shit. There's days none of this seems real and any problems are distant. Then something happens to bring it all back. But for there to be any reasonable future for young people today (and even those of us not so young) I don't think it's possible to lie down and die without giving it a good shot.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Back in the day the slogan was direct action gets the goods. I can't see that being the case here, in part because there's a disconnect for me at least between what they're doing and why they say they're doing it. Leaving the pissed off people to one side, I think the notion this sort of limited blocking roads will lead to a great change in policy is daft. Either ramp it up and block roads across the country preferably simultaneously or don't bother.

Ramp it the fuck up then - but yeah, take your point.
This country needs some ramped up DA right now, & if that means that the “working class can’t get to feed their families” then so fucking be it. Cos this shithouse of a gov or Saul certainly don’t give a fuck.

 

[Elpenor]

Car bans

List of car-free islands - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Car bans would lead to more pedestrians - so there’d be a much larger car ban footprint.

 

[Pickman's model]

Car bans would lead to more pedestrians - so there’d be a much larger car ban footprint.

Worse, it might lead to more cyclists

 

[LDC]

Ramp it the fuck up then - but yeah, take your point.
This country needs some ramped up DA right now, & if that means that the “working class can’t get to feed their families” then so fucking be it. Cos this shithouse of a gov or Saul certainly don’t give a fuck.

Ok, but then how does that work further down the line? Piss shit loads of people off by doing all this militant highly disruptive stuff trying to force the government to do what you demand. And then if they don't you've lost a base of support from the people you could have had on your side? Where then? Cos usually the answer is the State clamps down on you and nobody cares (or is pleased) as you've pissed them off so much.

 

[LDC]

Direct action is not usually about doing stuff to ask (or force) the government to do other stuff.

 

[Elpenor]

Worse, it might lead to more cyclists

Let’s leave the anti cyclist stuff to the cesspit that is the anti-car propaganda thread

 

[Pickman's model]

Ok, but then how does that work further down the line? Piss shit loads of people off by doing all this militant highly disruptive stuff trying to force the government to do what you demand. And then if they don't you've lost a base of support from the people you could have had on your side? Where then? Cos usually the answer is the State clamps down on you and nobody cares (or is pleased) as you've pissed them off so much.

Do you think the pin-pricks the current protests inflict hurt capital at all? I think they more help it as the protestors are ineffective as well as being subjected to widespread condemnation. If they were able to bring disruption across the country all at once they'd not need to do it often, as the threat would have substance behind it.