Did You Vote LibDem?

[Blagsta]

If people want workers to have better pay they should shop at places that treat their workers better. This is why I don't often shop at Tesco ( I do occasionaly if it is the only place open nearby).

Tesco has a high profit becuase people like shopping there.

You're so out of touch it's unbelievable. People shop at Tescos 'cos often they can't afford anything else.

 

[moon23]

Oh right, it's only really pass law if its done biometrically. Otherwise fine go ahead. Don't you understand that you can't pose a a civil libertarian whilst supporting an unprecedented on the civil liberties of others/ You have forfeited that right. I know that you think you can because you're a politician now - there is a great defender of civil liberties (for some) who springs to mind when reading your libertarian trajectory drivel - David Davies, but without the gravtias, or maybe Alan Duncan.

There is a distinction between a universal identitiy document and a permit for a particular purpose. I've allready stated i'm more of a free-movement person, but that the policy is a response to the democratic local concerns arising from too many migrants in certain areas putting a strain on resources.

Directing these people and giving them permits to work in areas where their labour is needed and they will be welcomed for their valuable economic input is not creating a pass system.

It amusses me you would cherry-pick a bit of Cameron's Tory propaganda that was used to justifiy a cap on immigration. Although it's not unsurprising as I susect many on the left would justify capping immigration if it was sold along the nationalistic job protectionist line as with recent steel worker protests.

 

[Blagsta]

Low wages are the fault of consumers and immigrants are to blame for the BNP; thanks for clarification moon23. I can see why you approve of the coalition. What I don't get is why not just join the Conservative Party?

Louis MacNeice

innit

 

[Blagsta]

High taxation on profits threatens the poor as it drives economic activity out of the UK. Profit's in the UK are re-invested into new economic activity that generates more jobs for people.

All the time people have the free choice to purchase products from operations that treat their workers better, if someone wants to buy free-trade or from a company that looks after their workers better like John Lewis then they can do.

The Quakers industries flourised with an ethical model of free-trade and capitalism, i'd hope for a resurgance of such models.

All very well going on about choice, if you have money. What about the rest of us?

 

[butchersapron]

There is a distinction between a universal identitiy document and a permit for a particular purpose. I've allready stated i'm more of a free-movement person, but that the policy is a response to the democratic local concerns arising from too many migrants in certain areas putting a strain on resources.

Directing these people and giving them permits to work in areas where their labour is needed and they will be welcomed for their valuable economic input is not creating a pass system.

It amusses me you would cherry-pick a bit of Cameron's Tory propaganda that was used to justifiy a cap on immigration. Although it's not unsurprising as I susect many on the left would justify capping immigration if it was sold along the nationalistic job protectionist line as with recent steel worker protests.

You don't sound like that much of a free-movement person to be honest Dave.

 

[moon23]

You're so out of touch it's unbelievable. People shop at Tescos 'cos often they can't afford anything else.

Lidl is cheaper, people enjoy having more consumer goods at a low price. Tesco sell many luxury items such as DVDs, Flat Screen TVs. Most people who shop there could sacrafice having a bit less in order to buy from places that treated their workers better but they choose not to.

Granted some people have to shop at places with low prices as they are poor, in which case they are lucky to have that option of low prices brought about by lowly paid workers.

 

[Blagsta]

Lidl is cheaper, people enjoy having more consumer goods at a low price. Tesco sell many luxury items such as DVDs, Flat Screen TVs. Most people who shop there could sacrafice having a bit less in order to buy from places that treated their workers better but they choose not to.

Granted some people have to shop at places with low prices as they are poor, in which case they are lucky to have that option of low prices brought about by lowly paid workers.

clueless and arrogant

 

[moon23]

Low wages are the fault of consumers and immigrants are to blame for the BNP; thanks for clarification moon23. I can see why you approve of the coalition. What I don't get is why not just join the Conservative Party?

Louis MacNeice

Of course if you enter into a trade transaction for goods and you choose to buy from a supplier that pays their workers a low income you are in part to blame.

The BNP thrive on the fear that is generated from poor planning and provision of services in areas where there is high immigration. Just go to Bradford and ask anyone about something like housing provision and you will get here concerns about immigration, it's those concerns the BNP play on. You might be able remove those concerns by better mananging immigration and directing it to where it is needed. A true libertarian would probably say the market would resolve that problem it'self.

 

[Santino]

Poor people are to blame for poverty.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

High taxation on profits threatens the poor as it drives economic activity out of the UK. Profit's in the UK are re-invested into new economic activity that generates more jobs for people.

All the time people have the free choice to purchase products from operations that treat their workers better, if someone wants to buy free-trade or from a company that looks after their workers better like John Lewis then they can do.

The Quakers industries flourised with an ethical model of free-trade and capitalism, i'd hope for a resurgance of such models.

This is a self satisfied fantasy where profits stay where they are extracted and we are all free to choose.

Louis MacNeice

 

[moon23]

clueless and arrogant

I don't think it's arrogant, poor people benifet from cheap prices in supermarkets and those who can afford it should consider spending a bit more and buying from suppliers that treat their workers better.

I know a lot of middle-class people like buying from farmers markets these days and are happy to pay a premium for organic or fair-trade products. Take for instance in Brighton where I used to live, many people would choose to shop at Infinity foods as a more ethical cooperative even if they didn't have huge amounts of money themselves.

If someone is really poor then of course they will have to shop at places like Aldi, Tesco etc, the knock on cost of this though is that Tesco don't treat their workers very well so I acknowledge there is a trap here with that buisness model.

 

[Blagsta]

Of course if you enter into a trade transaction for goods and you choose to buy from a supplier that pays their workers a low income you are in part to blame.

Again you're completely ignoring income/class. You're assuming that everyone has the same choices, that "choice" is some abstract notion indepenent of concrete circumstances. It isn't. Choice is contingent on circumstance.

The BNP thrive on the fear that is generated from poor planning and provision of services in areas where there is high immigration. Just go to Bradford and ask anyone about something like housing provision and you will get here concerns about immigration, it's those concerns the BNP play on. You might be able remove those concerns by better mananging immigration and directing it to where it is needed. A true libertarian would probably say the market would resolve that problem it'self.

You remove those concerns by providing housing. You have no idea about housing provision and the dire straits it's in. None at all.

 

[Blagsta]

I don't think it's arrogant, poor people benifet from cheap prices in supermarkets and those who can afford it should consider spending a bit more and buying from suppliers that treat their workers better.

I know a lot of middle-class people like buying from farmers markets these days and are happy to pay a premium for organic or fair-trade products. Take for instance in Brighton where I used to live, many people would choose to shop at Infinity foods as a more ethical cooperative even if they didn't have huge amounts of money themselves.

If someone is really poor then of course they will have to shop at places like Aldi, Tesco etc, the knock on cost of this though is that Tesco don't treat their workers very well so I acknowledge there is a trap here with that buisness model.

We can shop to a brighter future! Middle class toss.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Of course if you enter into a trade transaction for goods and you choose to buy from a supplier that pays their workers a low income you are in part to blame.

Income Support main rates
Personal allowances 2009/2010 2010/2011
Single - aged under 18 - usual rate 50.95 51.85
Single - aged less than 25 50.95 51.85
Single - aged under 18 - higher rate payable
in specific circumstances
50.95 51.85
Single - aged not less than 25 64.30 65.45
Lone Parent - aged under 18 - usual rate 50.95 51.85
Lone Parent - aged under 18 - higher rate payable
in specific circumstances
50.95 51.85
Lone Parent - aged 18 or over 64.30 65.45
Couple - both aged under 18 50.95 51.85
Couple - both aged under 18, one disabled 50.95 51.85
Couple - one aged under 18, one aged 18 to 24 50.95 51.85
Couple - one aged under 18, one aged 25 or over 64.30 65.45
Couple - both aged under 18, with responsibility for a child 76.90 78.30
Couple - both aged 18 or over 100.95 102.75
Dependent Children - from birth to day before 20th birthday 56.11 57.57​

Greedy bastards.

Louis MacNeice

 

[butchersapron]

This is a self satisfied fantasy where profits stay where they are extracted and we are all free to choose.

Louis MacNeice

It's like 18th century landowning improvers gout driven dream - even in marx's day the mobility of capital was being commented on. Unless dave is suggesting erecting controls to capital mobility and profit extraction?

 

[moon23]

Poor people are to blame for poverty.

Not always, but sometimes people are poor becuase they don't work very hard. For instance I could work harder and have more money but instead I am wasting my time on Urban75, to some extent that is my free choice.

If someone is so poor they have to buy from somewhere that treats their workers badly they are obviously not at fault. What i'm saying is that those people who can afford to say buy fair-trade or shop at a a local cooperative rather than Tesco are in part to blame for other people's poor working conditions.

 

[Blagsta]

Not always, but sometimes people are poor becuase they don't work very hard. For instance I could work harder and have more money but instead I am wasting my time on Urban75, to some extent that is my free choice.

If someone is so poor they have to buy from somewhere that treats their workers badly they are obviously not at fault. What i'm saying is that those people who can afford to say buy fair-trade or shop at a a local cooperative rather than Tesco are in part to blame for other people's poor working conditions.

you've got the tail wagging the dog there

 

[moon23]

We can shop to a brighter future! Middle class toss.

We can trade for a brighter future, of course.

 

[butchersapron]

How long till he says comparative 'advantage'? Within 10 posts i reckon.

 

[moon23]

Income Support main rates
Personal allowances 2009/2010 2010/2011
Single - aged under 18 - usual rate 50.95 51.85
Single - aged less than 25 50.95 51.85
Single - aged under 18 - higher rate payable
in specific circumstances
50.95 51.85
Single - aged not less than 25 64.30 65.45
Lone Parent - aged under 18 - usual rate 50.95 51.85
Lone Parent - aged under 18 - higher rate payable
in specific circumstances
50.95 51.85
Lone Parent - aged 18 or over 64.30 65.45
Couple - both aged under 18 50.95 51.85
Couple - both aged under 18, one disabled 50.95 51.85
Couple - one aged under 18, one aged 18 to 24 50.95 51.85
Couple - one aged under 18, one aged 25 or over 64.30 65.45
Couple - both aged under 18, with responsibility for a child 76.90 78.30
Couple - both aged 18 or over 100.95 102.75
Dependent Children - from birth to day before 20th birthday 56.11 57.57​

Greedy bastards.

Louis MacNeice

I've never said people on income support are greedy, stop being so hysterical and putting words into my mouth.

 

[Blagsta]

We can trade for a brighter future, of course.

Who holds the balance of power?

This is pure libertarian bull. We're all equal partners in trading. Abstract ahistorical bull.

 

[moon23]

Again you're completely ignoring income/class. You're assuming that everyone has the same choices, that "choice" is some abstract notion indepenent of concrete circumstances. It isn't. Choice is contingent on circumstance.




You remove those concerns by providing housing. You have no idea about housing provision and the dire straits it's in. None at all.

Housing provision is in dire straits after 13 years of a Labour govenment, enough said.

 

[fractionMan]

Lidl is cheaper, people enjoy having more consumer goods at a low price. Tesco sell many luxury items such as DVDs, Flat Screen TVs. Most people who shop there could sacrafice having a bit less in order to buy from places that treated their workers better but they choose not to.

Granted some people have to shop at places with low prices as they are poor, in which case they are lucky to have that option of low prices brought about by lowly paid workers.

fuck me

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I've never said people on income support are greedy, stop being so hysterical and putting words into my mouth.

You've said they push down wages in order to satisfy their desire for affordable goods and services. What drives their desire for luxuries like chocolate and chips and sports on TV if it isn't greed?

Louis MacNeice

 

[frogwoman]

Oh my goodness

 

[fractionMan]

Not always, but sometimes people are poor becuase they don't work very hard. For instance I could work harder and have more money but instead I am wasting my time on Urban75, to some extent that is my free choice.

If someone is so poor they have to buy from somewhere that treats their workers badly they are obviously not at fault. What i'm saying is that those people who can afford to say buy fair-trade or shop at a a local cooperative rather than Tesco are in part to blame for other people's poor working conditions.

jesus christ.

 

[moon23]

Meanwhile the previous Labour government of 70s brought about a 3-day week, power blackouts and an IMF bailout which really helped workers conditions.

 

[frogwoman]

So someone who works in asda for a low wage and also shops there is lucky to - ahhh forget it

 

[cesare]

Housing provision is in dire straits after 13 years of a Labour govenment, enough said.

Housing is in dire straits because of Thatcher's Right To Buy policy.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Housing provision is in dire straits after 13 years of a Labour govenment, enough said.

Housing provision is in dire straights after more than half a century of the promotion of owner occupation.

Louis MacNeice