No. I've as much right to express my opinion on this as you have. And why shouldn't I point out that your leader, Cameron, made those comments?
I supported the lib dems againts the tories, this is a lib dem policy which the tories attacked during the campaign when they were campaigning against us, and it's bullshit for you to attempt to pull this kind of crap about cameron being my leader. He's as much your leader as mine, as in he's the Prime Minister. Yes the Lib Dems have agreed to support him in that on the basis of a lot of concessions from him to us, and because we had fuck all other logical option available to us. This does not make him my leader or mean that I'm likely to agree with or support every word he's ever uttered.
If you want to express your opinion, that's fine, but if you do it in the way you've chosen to in this thread, then you must surely expect the sort of reaction you just got. Or can you only dish it out?
How has Labour's points based system made it impossible for non EU workers to migrate here? Also, whilst there are still illegal gangmasters operating, they are
regulated/licensed now and the numbers of illegal immigrants entering the country has reduced as a result. That does nothing about the amount of illegal immigrants already here - but the LibDems wanted an amnesty on that ... and part of the coalition deal was to give that up.
labour's points based system currently makes it impossible for unskilled non-eu economic migrants* to migrate here, as they've specifically closed down tier 3 for non-EU migrants, as clearly stated in the link I posted earlier, which I've just verified against several other sites to check it was current.
*other than in a few very limited circumstances eg existing domestic help of people moving here, national government employees etc
Actually, there are skills shortages in London. Especially in, for example, medicine. But all this was discussed way back in the thread.
which has what to do with Tier 3 immigration, which is the only tier currently closed to non-EU migrants, and therefore the only tier likely to be affected at all in the near future by the lib dem proposals?
Tiers 1 and 2 for skilled workers from outside the EU are currently open across the country, and would therefore not be likely to be affected either way by the lib dem policy (unless at some stage there was an oversupply of skilled workers in one area, while an undersupply remained in another at some point in the future, but right now there'd almost certainly be no change to tiers 1 or 2 nationwide).
"As you understand it" ... from where? You're aware that since 6 January ID/biometric cards are mandatory for any new visas/permits/extensions, yes? (And that was discussed earlier in the thread too iirc). So the system is up and running and we actually do have them now. Employer checks are already carried out (don't forget that employers for some tiers have to be sponsors and licenced). But all that those checks would do, would be to establish that the immigrant's home address is within the proposed zone that they're permitted to work in - which would leave leeway for all kinds of temporary address situations. It just wouldn't work without more policing than you're suggesting. And in any event, as was observed earlier, it's the nature of migrant working to go to where the work is.
Any sensible company would make full copies of all passports, and entitlement to work documents, and keep them on file for immediate inspection by the immigration service (or other authorised body) upon demand. If a company didn't do this, then they would automatically be liable for a fine of upto £10k per illegal worker, or potentially per worker on their payroll who they couldn't prove had been working legally for them if they had already left.
This is exactly the same position as currently exists under the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006, it would just mean that employers would have an additional document to copy.
Where the person lived would have no relevance to the situation, it is where they are working that is the issue.
Yes employers may still bend the rules, but I can tell you from personal experience that a potential £10k fine per person forces all but the most illegal of companies to seriously tighten up their procedures to ensure full compliance.
I am aware that ID cards have come in for immigrants, as I was campaigning against it at the time (to a limited extent, as I'm largely retired from that side of stuff). I don't really see the relevance to this policy though, being as it relates only to where people can work, rather than where they can visit, travel or live, so randomly demanding ID from people in the street to see if they were allowed to work in that region would almost certainly be considered an excessive / illegal use of police powers, and would likely be ruled illegal following any legal challenge if any police forces did try it on.
Essentially, as with the current policy on the
'prevention of illegal working' the onus would be on spot checks and big fines for employers to force employers to comply with the law, rather than granting the police powers to harrass anyone who might be an immigrant on the street. People would be asked to show their permit to work in that region only once at the start of their employment with each employer, which is massively different to the general understanding of a pass system where the police would generally have the power to demand to see a persons pass at any point, using this right to harass and intimidate people, with affected people expected to carry it with them at all times etc.
The phrase Pass System, or Pass Laws have very specific conotations in most people's minds, which are about a million miles away from the system proposed, which is why I'm pretty fucked off with people who should know better using the term to score points with.
More patronising. Yes, I'm an employent specialist but not an immigration specialist (are you? What's your job by the way, now you've started down that track?) however I've dealt with immigration issues for years. Coincidentally, I was doing exactly that last night/this morning and I do have an operational insight into how this works. What would like me to add further, case study examples?
I'm happy to argue the toss with you or anyone about it, what I object to is people, particularly those who should know better, just repeated urbans stock insult for this policy rather than actually debating the issues. You're now debating the issue, for which I'd thank you if that wouldn't get me another accusation of me being patronisng.
re my expertise... I'm not a specialist in the field by any means, but I was personnel manager for a company employing over 120 seasonal staff last year, from across the UK and EU, and responsible for ensuring we complied fully with employment law, border agency directives etc including knocking back any applications from outside the EU. Most of the UK and EU people we employed, and the agencies we worked with also crossed over into the seasonal work for farms and the like, bringing the harvest in etc. so I've got a fair idea of what the situation is, and the concerns that exist within the sector.
