Did You Vote LibDem?

[Blagsta]

cryptic? In what way? Have you been following the discussion?

 

[Azrael]

As you like to say, woooosh.

 

[Blagsta]

yes it is rather over your head. To recap - moon23 argues that "freedom" is more important than having enough money to live on, a job etc. I point out that this is abstract nonsense as it leaves one "free" to do what? Starve? You then jump in with addled mad shit. Hence me wondering as to your sobriety.

 

[moon23]

This is rubbish. You're arguing for an abstract freedom that is more important (to you) than having a roof over your head and feeding your family. What shit is that?

Freedom is not abstract it's about how we are able to live our lifes and how that makes us feel.

 

[moon23]

Our ability to interact, to innovate and to trade are all linked to freedom. If the state prevents you from doing these things then you canno't feed yourself or put a roof over your head.

 

[moon23]

yes it is rather over your head. To recap - moon23 argues that "freedom" is more important than having enough money to live on, a job etc. I point out that this is abstract nonsense as it leaves one "free" to do what? Starve? You then jump in with addled mad shit. Hence me wondering as to your sobriety.

Why would starvation be the logical outcome of freedom? That just doesn't make any sense, people tend to starve when the state exerts too much power over their private lives. In Africa when Mugabee gets into power and starts seizing farms people start to go hungry, people if left alone will farm for themselves, trade for themselves and flourish.

All you need is a basic safety net which the welfare system provides you could make it much more simple though to save on the bueracracy of the current system. For instance why are poor people taxed only to have to jump through the hoops of a tax credit system?

 

[elbows]

Oh blimey Billy Bragg on This Week right now, admitting he is 'getting a bit of stick now'.

 

[elbows]

lol he is feeling all weird because the Tories might do things he wanted Labour to do, progressive progressive, voting reform, dont worry about feeling queasy, keep eyes on the prize.

 

[Sgt Howie]

Why would starvation be the logical outcome of freedom? That just doesn't make any sense, people tend to starve when the state exerts too much power over their private lives. In Africa when Mugabee gets into power and starts seizing farms people start to go hungry, people if left alone will farm for themselves, trade for themselves and flourish.

All you need is a basic safety net which the welfare system provides you could make it much more simple though to save on the bueracracy of the current system. For instance why are poor people taxed only to have to jump through the hoops of a tax credit system?

Fuck off, Tory.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Why would starvation be the logical outcome of freedom? That just doesn't make any sense, people tend to starve when the state exerts too much power over their private lives. In Africa when Mugabee gets into power and starts seizing farms people start to go hungry, people if left alone will farm for themselves, trade for themselves and flourish.

All you need is a basic safety net which the welfare system provides you could make it much more simple though to save on the bueracracy of the current system. For instance why are poor people taxed only to have to jump through the hoops of a tax credit system?

I'm sorry but that is just embarrassing ignorant Libertarian balls.

"when Mugabee gets into power" lol

 

[little_legs]

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I think Guy Rundle's summary of the lib dem & tory union sums it up:

Rundle's UK: the Clegg and Cameron double act -- not particularly funny

Journalist: "Prime Minister [Cameron] you were once asked for a political joke and you said 'Nick Clegg.' Do you have any comment?"

Clegg: (to Cameron) "Did you really?"

Cameron: (to Clegg) "Yes I did I'm sorry"

Clegg: (miming walking off) "Well that's it then..."

Laughter.

That was the scene towards the end of the first press conference between David Cameron and his new deputy PM Nick Clegg, in the Rose Garden behind Number 10 Downing Street. The new pair of leaders answered questions for around forty minutes, leaning heavily on the notion that this coalition of utter necessity was in fact the deliberate creation of a 'new politics'.

According to Cameron the deal was "a sign of the strength and depth of the coalition and our sincere determination to work together constructively," while Clegg claimed: “This is a new government and a new kind of government. A radical reforming government where it needs to be. And a source of reassurance and stability, too, at a time of great uncertainty in our country."

But they may as well have been playing light classics on the ocarina for all it mattered. The only thing the pundits wanted to talk about was this new political 'marriage' 'relationship' 'four day shag' call it what you will. Everyone was checking them out as they would the old friend's new squeeze brought to the dinner party.

"Cameron and Clegg seem totally at ease with each other. Their body language is very good," Iain Dale quoth on his blog, while Guido Fawkes noted that:

"The Rose Garden of Downing Street rarely sees such amicable proceedings. In what could be described as a cross between a Richard Curtis film and the end of Blind Date when the couple come back for a chat, Cameron and Clegg laughed and joked their way through a rather painful show of affection. One day they will probably look back and regret such an OTT performance."

While from Melbourne, Zoezora noted that the ending was:

"Cameron: You hang up first. Clegg: No, you hang up first! Cameron: No, you! Clegg OK. We'll both hang up together..."

And The Guardian being the bloody Guardian, started:

"Here's an interesting contribution on today's political marriage. Author and psychotherapist Susie Orbach says we're all going to have to adjust to...."

Argghhhhhhhh. Five bloody years.

Meanwhile, there was dissent from two dominant quarters – the old Tory right, and the Lib-Dem left. The former think, in the words of ConservativeHome blogger Tim Montgomerie that:

"Consequently, the Liberal Democrats will probably agree a deal with the Conservatives but their hearts aren’t in it. It’s hard to believe that they will be stable partners ..."

While Andrew Roberts, historian and tool noted:

"The best thing to be hoped for is that the Liberals Democrats will behave loyally and modestly in the national interest ...Sadly that is Cloudcuckoo Land, because the modern Liberal party is often to the left of Labour..."

While crazy Peter Hitchens said in the Mail:

"The reaction -- immediately and in the long term -- of properly conservative members and supporters of the Tory Party is the thing to watch. If they submit and allow themselves to be co-opted, then all immediate hope is gone and political and social conservatism is dead in this country. We can all go off and keep bees..."

Meanwhile, in the Lib-Demosphere, there were rumblings of dissent that may indicate a much larger exodus. According to Lib-Dem blogger Jane Watkinson:

"I can never support a LibDem/Tory coalition. I genuinely think this is the start of a serious destruction of the Lib Dems … we are going to be seriously squeezed in the next election. Labour will replace us in the north – we have already lost control of councils such as Sheffield – and the Tories will replace us in the south. We are going to be the soft face of a nasty government."

Of course, this may not be an immediate problem if the coalition sticks to its plan of a fixed five year term. This will be introduced as legislation, rather than as mere agreement, with a rule stipulating that only a no confidence motion gaining support of 55% of the Commons can trigger an early poll. This is bold. It may well also be unconstitutional, but that discussion is still playing out.

That, in effect, is the Lib-Dem leadership's own 'triple-lock' on the process, effectively strapping them in, and daring their membership to undermine them. Since much of that membership may depart, that may not be a problem – until an actual vote comes round. The Thirsk election will be an interesting thing to watch, as will the Scottish election in 2011 in this regard.

Also in the news today was David Miliband, who has officially thrown his hat into the ring for the Labour leadership – no surprise, since he is the short favourite, against Ed Balls and Miliband's own brother, also an Ed.

But this process will take months to complete, and in the interim Harriet Harman remains as acting Labour leader, following in the proud tradition of Joan Kirner, Carmen Lawrence, Kristina Keneally, Anna Bligh etc etc, of getting the fag end of power.

Tough luck honey, but hey we never promised you a rose garden.

available at: http://media.crikey.com.au/dm/newsletter/dailymail_b7ae5fc1516c364981cf9689a79af9e4.html#article_3429

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[fractionMan]

I think I'm going to throw up.

 

[moon23]

Fuck off, Tory.

That's it deal with people who disagree with your point of view with agression, sure it will sort out all your problems in life.

 

[Sgt Howie]

That's it deal with people who disagree with your point of view with agression, sure it will sort out all your problems in life.

Fuck off, Tory.

 

[fractionMan]

Economic Left/Right: -7.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.87

lol

 

[moon23]

I'm sorry but that is just embarrassing ignorant Libertarian balls.

"when Mugabee gets into power" lol

There are countless examples of state oppression resulting in starvation, I’m just pointing out how absurd Blagsta is in painting this as some kind of choice where civil liberty comes at the cost of starvation it's nonsense, things like starvation occur predominantly in countries where there is a lack of liberty. I say predominantly as of course there are other variable environmental factors such as local crop failure.

 

[moon23]

Fuck off, Tory.

That's it feel the self-righteous rage flow through you

 

[Sgt Howie]

That's it feel the self-righteous rage flow through you

Fuck you Thatcher Tory cunt.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

There are countless examples of state oppression resulting in starvation, I’m just pointing out how absurd Blagsta is in painting this as some kind of choice where civil liberty comes at the cost of starvation it's nonsense, things like starvation occur predominantly in countries where there is a lack of liberty. I say predominantly as of course there are other variable environmental factors such as local crop failure.

There are food shortages in Zimbabwe because "Mugabee" hates freedom.

Yeah.

 

[fractionMan]

I remain amazed at the army of cleggites who think they're somehow Doing Good and Fighting For Freedom.

 

[fractionMan]

Maybe I'm feeling smug because I didn't vote for the bastards, but if I had done I'd have the good grace to admit my mistake.

 

[moon23]

Maybe I'm feeling smug because I didn't vote for the bastards, but if I had done I'd have the good grace to admit my mistake.

Or if you had voted for the party you would be pleased ID cards are being scrapped and key aspects from all four polices areas for a fairer britian are being enacted.

This is coalition politics in action, I know it's hard for those stuck in a form of Tory bashing tribalism to get their heads around, but it's about making the best of a bad situation and compromise.

 

[fractionMan]

Or if you had voted for the party you would be pleased ID cards are being scrapped and key aspects from all four polices areas for a fairer britian are being enacted.

This is coalition politics in action, I know it's hard for those stuck in a form of Tory bashing tribalism to get their heads around, but it's about making the best of a bad situation and compromise.

you mean if I had voted tory?

there is no coalition, only tories, tory policies and libdems like yourself in denial. Wake up ffs.

 

[moon23]

you mean if I had voted tory?

If you had voted Lib Dem

 

[fractionMan]

Oh, and keep banging on about ID cards, it's really helping your argument.

 

[fractionMan]

If you had voted Lib Dem

I would have got a tory government just the same. Great. Thanks for that.

 

[little_legs]

Oh, and keep banging on about ID cards, it's really helping your argument.

it might be useful for moon23 to know that foreigners such as myself have been carrying ID cards for the past 2 years. in those two years, i've not had to use this ID card and have never been asked to show it. under moon23's new sunshine government foreigners are still obliged to carry them, because they will not revoke them completely. so i am not sure what fucking liberties moon23 is drumming about.

and... this will sound very cynical but i wouldn't be surprised when ID cards will be on tory's agenda when the national security threat level is raised, they just need a good reason to justify it. this sounds mean, i know, so my apologies.

 

[moon23]

I would have got a tory government just the same. Great. Thanks for that.

Whereas you would have wanted instead a Tory administration that lasted a few months untill a vote of no confidence, then another election that would plunge the country into uncertainty and result in the markets downgrading our national debt rating and more people losing their jobs?

After that chaos Labour and the Lib Dems would then have to fight an election with empty coffers, Labour without a leader or with Brown still at the helm and the Lib Dems being blammed for the whole mess?!

People voted Tory, rather than blamming the Lib Dems who were open about their promise to form a coalition with the largest party you should be reflecting on how much Labour fucked up to let this happen.

 

[moon23]

it might be useful for moon23 to know that foreigners such as myself have been carrying ID cards for the past 2 years. in those two years, i've not had to use this ID card and have never been ask to show it. under moon23's new sunshine government foreigners are still obliged to carry them, because they will not revoke them completely. so i am not sure what fucking liberties moon23 is drumming about.

and... this will sound very cynical but i wouldn't be surprised when ID cards will be on tory's agenda when the national security threat level is raised, they just need a good reason to justify it. this sounds mean, i know, so my apologies.

I’m fully aware of them and I've probably done more than anyone on this board to campaign against them , and yes I'm aware they are administered under the UK Borders Act 2007 and run by the UKBA and form a surveillance system attached to biometric visas. Needing to show the card is a bit of a red herring, it’s all about the Database system which runs the ICFN which largely operates without you needing to be present or showing the card.

Obviously I’m still going to continue campaigning for those to be scrapped as well, and until we have more details it’s unclear what is happening.

 

[little_legs]

You’re wrong. I’m fully aware of them and I've probably done more than anyone on this board to campaign against them , and yes I'm aware they are administered under the UK Borders Act 2007 and run by the UKBA and form a surveillance system attached to biometric visas. Needing to show the card is a bit of a red herring, it’s all about the Database system which runs the ICFN which largely operates without you needing to be present or showing the card.

Obviously I’m still going to continue campaigning for those to be scrapped as well, and until we have more details it’s unclear what is happening.