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Did you vote for Starmer?

Well did you

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William of Walworth said:
I suppose before though, I was just trying to say that with elections, things are inevitably more nuanced.
My main point remains : that little as I like Starmer, he/Labour would be very hard pushed to do worse (electorally) in 2023.
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redsquirrel said:
What does electorally mean here? Seats? Votes? Labour took the same share of the electorate in 2019 as in 2005. Was 2005 a disaster electorally?
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Just seen this from you redsquirrel ....
I only meant in terms of seats -- I'd be pretty surprised if Labour don't gain/regain some next time compared to 2019 seat total. Little as I like Starmer, I can't see him being so incompetent as to fail to do that.
But to gain enough seats to win? Probably not.
For the 2005 comparison, I'd need to look at the figures in more detail to get my head round it, and right now I'm too knackered/can't be arsed/take your pick ...... apols! :oops:
 
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treelover said:
if Cooper was in, I and many other disabled and sick members would be out, architect of much of the brutal welfare reforrms, ATOS, WCA, etc.

We(people i know) are tolerating Liam Byrne, due to his apologising/contrition, nothing from Ms Cooper.
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what do you make of Liz Kendall being brought in?
 
A380 said:
do you still genuinely believe we could see any other kind of alternative ?
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Yes, emphatically so. The climate is more ripe for a genuine, radical socialist alternative than at any time since winter, 1978/9.
The political mood has shifted hugely in the past few years. Two entire generations have been completely fucked over, and they're angry and ready to listen.
A return to Blairism can't get those millions voting Labour - a red, redistributive, Sanders type campaign can do.
 
A380 said:
I answe

I'm still waiting for that chance: "Show me where the alternative has been successful. Not a brave charge of the light brigade inspirational failure."
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A380 said:
I'm still waiting for that chance: "Show me where the alternative has been successful. Not a brave charge of the light brigade inspirational failure."
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Err..the first hundred years of the TU movement? How women got the vote?
Just a thought
 
I'd always dismissed the idea that cleaving to authority figures under times of stress was a typical response but here we are with the Sir Quiff and the Remainers, riding the wankers chariot, providing the after dinner entertainment as the world stares down the barrel of a depression. See also: 'oh rishi sunak, what a prime ministerial figure'. All morbid symptoms
 
What a depressing line up for the Shadow Cabinet.

Here is Labour List view:

While Starmer stuck to safe territory for his headline appointments earlier in the week, here he has strayed from his party unity message. This is a clear indication that the future direction of the party may not be as Corbynite-friendly as the shadow cabinet might suggest. The MPs in this new batch are the ones who will eventually rise up the ranks and secure the most senior jobs.
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labourlist.org

Starmer boosts Labour's right with shadow ministerial jobs - LabourList

After awarding nearly all shadow cabinet level jobs to MPs from the middle of Labour, Keir Starmer has…
labourlist.org labourlist.org
 
I see Starmer has got rid of one of my local MPs - . Bell Ribeiro-Addy- who was shadow immigration minister. Not a good sign imo. She is turning out to be a popular local MP.

Replaced Chuka as MP in Streatham. One of the successes of the new membership was to wrest control of the local party from the Blairites. The Blairities didnt get there candidate ( a Lambeth Cllr) chosen for the seat.
 
fakeplasticgirl said:
Here’s an alternative view for you :)
(And the two posts after it)
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The view from someone who publicly calls themselves a liberal leftie.

It's a crap piece anyway. I don't know what they mean by "TL" but the piece Gramsci posted was quite clear that these appointments were not to the Shadow Cabinet. And the idea that the position of junior ministers doesn't matter shows gaping lack of analysis. It's not about the power of these people have over policy it's about cementing power and building a base, excluding those on the left while bringing in those on the right certainly gives a indication both about the future direction of travel (people that are junior ministers today are tomorrows shadow cabinet) and that Starmer (probably correctly) sees more danger from the right than from the left.

You got mugged by the libdems, if you are going to plump for liberal-leftism ok but go in with your eyes open.

EDIT: This is where this bloke is coming from. Either he is genuinely ignorant or it's the old "unity" card being used to beat socialists to sell out and back liberalism.
. xxx.png
 
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fakeplasticgirl said:
Well I’m a liberal leftie, so...

i would just rather see the Labour Party snipe at the tories than each other.
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I think that’s the main issue I have with your position. Whilst the job of the opposition should include scrutiny and ‘holding the government to account‘ there is a) a certain irrelevance to it when the government has a massive majority b) a tendency for this to be become the ends in itself rather than just one means and c) a process that takes on obsessive qualities to the extent that to ordinary people it’s just posh wankers making noise at each other that they choose to tune out from.

Once, the Labour movement had loftier aims. To build organised power in workplaces, to provide community resources (mining communities developed their own NHS before the NHS) I , to make working class communities sites of cultural and artistic production and to build a better world. These were seen as part of an approach that including winning parliamentary seats.

It was about change, hope and insurgency. Not an insider appeal to do it better than the other lot.


I’ve heard nothing from the new leader yet about empowering social movements, building union organisation or community organisation. Not a word. Nor from his new team.

Is the best we can hope for another period of parliamentary ruses, clever arguments and maybe the odd scalp of a Tory minister?
 
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Smokeandsteam said:
Once, the Labour movement had loftier aims. To build organised power in workplaces, to provide community resources (mining communities developed their own NHS before the NHS) I , to make working class communities sites of cultural and artistic production and to build a better world. These were seen as part of an approach that including winning parliamentary seats.
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Yes, this is what I was getting at with the question I asked William of Walworth. That the focus becomes not just on the party, not just on parliamentary politics, but on the LP being in government.

The idea that the LP is the labour movement is something that is not just actively harmful but totally unnecessary even for the most stalwart LP members. Millions of loyal members that supported the LP through thick and thin can/could recognise that while it was desirous that the LP be in government that was not the be all and end all. And to call the members who fought for this de facto Tories is pathetic, for these members LP served the wider labour movement not the other way around.
 
redsquirrel there is a need for a historiography that places the Labour Party in its correct context within the broader development of working class struggle.

A massive amount of the debate I’m reading on the left at the moment, and especially among younger people, suggests a tendency to understand issues, tactics and formations on the basis of how they relate to the Labour Party. This is a fatal misunderstanding of the historical role and purpose of both the LP and pro working class politics.
 
Streathamite said:
Err..the first hundred years of the TU movement? How women got the vote?
Just a thought
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Sorry, you may have misread posts I was responding too. Absolutely agree, in fact that’s my very point, you fight and campaign for improvements for our lives You don’t pin everything on a revelation and despise those who don’t share your pipe dream.
 
A380 said:
Sorry, you may have misread posts I was responding too. Absolutely agree, in fact that’s my very point, you fight and campaign for improvements for our lives You don’t pin everything on a revelation and despise those who don’t share your pipe dream.
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A380 said:
Why do you want to keep the Torys in power so much, just to stay pure, or do you still genuinely believe we could see any other kind of alternative ?
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A380 said:
Sorry, you may have misread posts I was responding too. Absolutely agree, in fact that’s my very point, you fight and campaign for improvements for our lives You don’t pin everything on a revelation and despise those who don’t share your pipe dream.
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Do you really claim to understand revolutionary socialism? Because this post indicates otherwise, either you ignorant (despite your upbringing) or you are being dishonest.

And it people are going to talk about showing solidarity across the "left" then this post is far worse then they might want to start here with the absolute dismissal of millions of socialists that were in the forefront of the "fight and campaign for improvements" to working class lives.
 
fakeplasticgirl said:
Well I’m a liberal leftie, so...

i would just rather see the Labour Party snipe at the tories than each other.
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What I saw in my local area of Lambeth was not sniping. It was the long time New Labour Cllrs opposing the Corbyn leadership and all he represented as break with Blairism. They "sniped" at him from the very beginning. They relished making Corbyn go through a second leadership election.

A local Cllr I know had always been a die hard loyalist. Supported Blair , Brown, Miliband without question. When it came to Corybn that loyalty went out the window.

The local leader of Council Cllr Jack Hopkins recently derided the increase in local members due to Corbyn as people who just want to discuss "Venezuela" at local party meetings.

The "sniping" imo came largely from the established New Labour section in local party.

If Corbyn hadnt had to deal with a Parliamentary party who were hostile and a local party apparatus who openly opposed him - Ive heard Cllrs do this- I wonder he might have had a better chance.
 
A380 said:
Because I'd quite like to see a government in England and Wales that isn't Tory in my lifetime and I watched my parents give about 25 years or their lives (and my childhood) to working for a revolution that never came. Why do you want to keep the Torys in power so much, just to stay pure, or do you still genuinely believe we could see any other kind of alternative ?
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Owen, is that you? ;)
 
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