Did you vote for Starmer?

[Smokeandsteam]

I believe the author used to be a regular poster on here. Some very good points he makes too. I especially like this:

“The result is a self-righteous minority which continues to marginalise and disparage the largest section of the working class, whilst simultaneously colonising and appropriating the very language and institutions of working class self-empowerment".

We need Momentum moving forwards – towards the working class!

By Michael Calderbank Momentum needs internal reform, and that ultimately has to mean greater democratic involvement and ownership from the activists and local groups in whose name it purports to s…

labourhub.org.uk

 

[Proper Tidy]

I apologise and clarify then: northern working class areas.

What, all of them, or just the ones with a leave majority?

The below are paid facebook adverts for pretty much the only seat in wales where the vote didn't go down, trad tory marginal which labour took from the tories in 2017 (by 5k) and held in 2019. Also one of the handful of remain leaning constituencies.





People aren't thick, you can't run campaigns like this then up the road tell people you're not the bollocks to brexit libdems and expect them to believe it.

Old hat now but it's absolutely mental to take the line that labour lost cos of corbyn and will fare better under lord eu flag when the seats held and lost directly, explicitly, clear as the fucking sun, correlate to whether those seats leant leave or remain. Tbf I suppose its only by denying the plainest of political observations that having lord remain in charge makes sense.

Also it makes me crunch my teeth when you talk about the 'northern working class', like it's a lowry painting with added wife beating

 

[William of Walworth]

Proper Tidy : I'm agreeing with a lot of what you're saying above -- Starmer will be a liability if Brexit remains a major issue next time.
(Bit of an 'if' there, by 2023 -- other issues may well have overtaken -- but still).

I don't really agree with this bit though :

it's absolutely mental to take the line that labour lost cos of corbyn and will fare better under lord eu flag

Corbyn was definitely a big factor for a lot of Labour-sceptical voters. I'd say

And it will be pretty hard for Starmer not to do better**.
I think he will, purely on the likelihood that there'll be a more competent/professional Labour campaign.
That's not to say I like him! At all ....

**And very likely not better enough .......

 

[strung out]

Wasn't everyone (or at least a significant proportion of people) praising the competence and professionalism of the Labour campaign in 2017? I wonder what happened between 2017 and 2019

 

[SpookyFrank]

Wasn't everyone (or at least a significant proportion of people) praising the competence and professionalism of the Labour campaign in 2017? I wonder what happened between 2017 and 2019

Starmer stuck his fucking oar in, that's what.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Proper Tidy : I'm agreeing with a lot of what you're saying above -- Starmer will be a liability if Brexit remains a major issue next time.
(Bit of an 'if' there, by 2023 -- other issues may well have overtaken -- but still).

I don't really agree with this bit though :



Corbyn was definitely a big factor for a lot of Labour-sceptical voters. I'd say

And it will be pretty hard for Starmer not to do better**.
I think he will, purely on the likelihood that there'll be a more competent/professional Labour campaign.
That's not to say I like him! At all ....

**And very likely not better enough .......

Thing is, there are two sets of data which on surface conflict with each other.

One is the data from opinion polling, which ranks corbyn (and by implication, politics to left of comfort zone) as the key factor people turned away from labour. We'll ignore for meantime that this factor had significantly less impact in 2017.

The other is the actual election results, which without any real exceptions show that labour lost leave seats and held remain seats, that labour haemorrhaged leave voters and kept remain voters. We'll also ignore the stupidity of choosing the latter over the former when the former had somewhere to go and the latter didn't.

Which do you think gives us a better guide, what people say or what people do?

We'll also ignore a third point - that there isn't really any conflict between the opinion polling and the election results because people with a negative view of something for x reason will also naturally take a negative view of y and z too but anyway.

 

[brogdale]

"I'm the opposition..."

Yer reckon?
FFS this is tame/boring even by his standards:

 

[William of Walworth]

Not just tame and boring but also bland -- which is even more insulting a description!

 

[brogdale]

Not just tame and boring but also bland -- which is even more insulting a description!

Starting to remind me of Sergeant Wilson...Would you all mind terribly governing a little more effectively, please?

 

[Proper Tidy]

This is how it will be now. Every one of these people has been calling for sensible and grown up for years and heralded the new king by expressing delight at how sensible and grown up he will be. Which means managerial and dull and as politically neutral as he can get away with. Let's watch those working class voters flood back in.

 

[fakeplasticgirl]

Hi proper tidy!

didn’t mean to sound patronising in the earlier post. Sorry badly worded.

what are your thoughts on how to win Scotland back out of interest?

 

[William of Walworth]

Proper Tidy : That (#186) is a fair post, I largely agree.
The difference between Labour's fate in remain areas and leave areas was definitely really marked.

I suppose before though, I was just trying to say that with elections, things are inevitably more nuanced.
My main point remains : that little as I like Starmer, he/Labour would be very hard pushed to do worse (electorally) in 2023.
As much because the operation will most likely be slicker and more professional -- those aren't words of praise, I emphasise!
Although less incompetence would be good in an election, that will be at the cost of sound politics almost certainly.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Hi proper tidy!

didn’t mean to sound patronising in the earlier post. Sorry badly worded.

what is your thoughts on how to win Scotland back out of interest?

No idea. It's fucked. Time machine to go back and not lump in with tories for the indy ref under sensible and grown up brown and darling maybe. That and not just being shite at council level for decades and treating scotland (and wales and The North) as fiefdoms.

Although I do note that the only positive shoots shown in scotland for labour in last decade was a spike in younger membership to left of snp under corbyn which quickly got blown to shit. Which would suggest that, while it can't out remain the snp or out unionist the scottish tories, it can quite easily out left them

 

[Proper Tidy]

Proper Tidy : That (#186) is a fair post, I largely agree.
The difference between Labour's fate in remain areas and leave areas was definitely really marked.

I suppose before though, I was just trying to say that with elections, things are inevitably more nuanced.
My main point remains : that little as I like Starmer, he/Labour would be very hard pushed to do worse (electorally) in 2023.
As much because the operation will most likely be slicker and more professional -- those aren't words of praise, I emphasise!
Although less incompetence would be good in an election, that will be at the cost of sound politics almost certainly.

Yeah, well you're right it's starting from a low point and we might be post-brexit by then which will help labour and at some point labour will get stronger due to tory fatigue rather than anything labour actually do so labour can obviously do better in next GE.

But none of that will solve the long term problems which has already eroded labour's base and will eventually - imo years not decades - result in a decree absolute

 

[fakeplasticgirl]

on a different note anybody got any thoughts on why Scotland voted remain when England didn’t?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

on a different note anybody got any thoughts on why Scotland voted remain when England didn’t?

In England and Wales voting leave was an expression of rejection of the status quo. It was a vote of insurgency.

In Scotland, led by the SNP, it was also an expression of a rejection of the status quo, and insurgency, but in that case channeled against Westminster rule.

In the long term however, the convergence of the two will be damaging to the faux socialists of the SNP.

By associating themselves - and independence - with the EU, the SNP have inevitably positioned independence as the establishment choice. In the long term therefore independence will lose the aura of being insurgent just as Labour did when it made its choice to side with the liberal middle class and against the working class on the question. As we can see with covid-19, and as we saw during the 2008 crash, the EU shows it’s true nature in a crisis and when forced to step outside its only function which is to administer neoliberal orthodoxy.

 

[fakeplasticgirl]

In England and Wales voting leave was an expression of rejection of the status quo. It was a vote of insurgency.

In Scotland, led by the SNP, it was also an expression of a rejection of the status quo, and insurgency, but in that case channeled against Westminster rule.

In the long term however, the convergence of the two will be damaging to the faux socialists of the SNP.

By associating themselves - and independence - with the EU, the SNP have inevitably positioned independence as the establishment choice. In the long term therefore independence will lose the aura of being insurgent just as Labour did when it made its choice to side with the liberal middle class and against the working class on the question. As we can see with covid-19, and as we saw during the 2008 crash, the EU shows it’s true nature in a crisis and exists merely to administer neoliberal orthodoxy.

I suggested that it was a vote against Westminster on twitter as it was my first thought too and got a load of angry SNP people replying to me denying it was anything to do with that. People said that after the Indy referendum people were far more clued up on the EU, and also the tabloids in Scotland were pro EU unlike on England (but why? Preaching to the converted?)

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I suggested that it was a vote against Westminster on twitter as it was my first thought too and got a load of angry SNP people replying to me denying it was anything to do with that. People said that after the Indy referendum people were far more clued up on the EU, and also the tabloids in Scotland were pro EU unlike on England (but why? Preaching to the converted?)

It was explicitly linked to independence by the SNP. Throughout the campaign they linked a fresh referendum with a vote in Scotland to remain if Britain voted to leave.

it is the position they continue to argue: Scotland wants to remain in the EU. We will press for entry once independence is secured

As the EU implodes, the SNP offer of independence linked to rejoining the EU becomes increasingly problematic. I suspect a decoupling will be attempted at some point soon

 

[redsquirrel]

I suppose before though, I was just trying to say that with elections, things are inevitably more nuanced.
My main point remains : that little as I like Starmer, he/Labour would be very hard pushed to do worse (electorally) in 2023.

What does electorally mean here? Seats? Votes? Labour took the same share of the electorate in 2019 as in 2005. Was 2005 a disaster electorally?

 

[Gramsci]

Would like to point out the working class in my area- Inner London - were Remain.

 

[belboid]

Would like to point out the working class in my area- Inner London - were Remain.

and the majority of the leave vote came from AB's in the south east, not the northern working class.

Anyone who says the leave vote had a simple, single, drive behind it is an imbecile. As with most things, it was driven by a number of contradictory factors, which manifested itself in a highly divided w-c vote.

 

[The39thStep]

Would like to point out the working class in my area- Inner London - were Remain.

Is there much support to rejoin ?

 

[03gills]

Absolutely not, watching socialists willingly vote for this snake oil salesman & also make a big song and dance about how they were doing it "reluctantly" because they really "respected RLB but she's just not ready yet" was depressing & patronizing-as-fuck. What's worse is most of these pricks voted for him early on & regret it now. (but won't say publicly)

Well tough shit, you made your fucking bed, lie in it.

 

[fakeplasticgirl]

[QUOTEi

Absolutely not, watching socialists willingly vote for this snake oil salesman & also make a big song and dance about how they were doing it "reluctantly" because they really "respected RLB but she's just not ready yet" was depressing & patronizing-as-fuck. What's worse is most of these pricks voted for him early on & regret it now. (but won't say publicly)

Well tough shit, you made your fucking bed, lie in it.

snake oil salesman?!

 

[treelover]

Starting to remind me of Sergeant Wilson...Would you all mind terribly governing a little more effectively, please?

please don't say that, it could gain currency.

 

[Gramsci]

Is there much support to rejoin ?

Id say a lot of people I know were sick of the whole thing by the end and just wanted it done. So no dont want to go through dviding the whole country again. Not that anyone I know who is Remain is happy about it. Some wanted a second referendum.

London being full of descendents of recent migrants a fair number of people I know are staying in EU by becoming citizens of other EU countries like Eire. Some of the Brazilians I know have Italian citizenship. So some have found ways around leaving EU.

 

[Gramsci]

He does remind me of Sergeant Wilson now.

 

[brogdale]

Toot toot.

 

[Proper Tidy]

and the majority of the leave vote came from AB's in the south east, not the northern working class.

Anyone who says the leave vote had a simple, single, drive behind it is an imbecile. As with most things, it was driven by a number of contradictory factors, which manifested itself in a highly divided w-c vote.

I mean it seems silly to be having the same old arguments years after and I agree on your middle point about not being any simple single drivers (like immigration) but rather messy conflicting and overlapping and contradictory factors. But singling out the w/c vote as highly divided seems odd (it was but it was in every class - the middle class the most divided) and 'the majority of the leave vote came from AB's in the south east, not the northern working class' (ugh) is bollocks isn't it.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Hope the Waitrose fan club on here are happy:

The return of the Blairite’s:

Labour: Keir Starmer unveils full shadow cabinet line-up

Past critics of Jeremy Corbyn - including Jess Phillips - are given roles by the new Labour leader.

www.bbc.co.uk