David Davis resigns as MP over civil liberties

[FridgeMagnet]

thank you

 

[Dravinian]

Well, you know, the media concentrated on Davis' position within the Tories and nothing happened. As predicted. It was a pointless race, as predicted, and the only media interest was in what it meant for internal Tory leadership politics, as predicted, despite a number of other groups getting involved, who were routinely signed off as fringe - even the Greens who actually had a good platform and tried hard. So, well, I can't see how that comes within a sniff of you being in any sense or any way "spot on".

You can argue whatever reasoning you like for why it happened, I stated at the start that the only way to defend our civil liberties was to make a mass movement at this critical time while the media was watching.

People wanted to ponce about with their own personal political choices, rather then make a large protest.

I argued with them and gave them several reasons why what they were talking about doing would only hurt the fight to stop the erosion of our civil liberties.

Those reasons are now, with hindsight, shown to have been correct.

 

[exosculate]

Well, you know, the media concentrated on Davis' position within the Tories and nothing happened. As predicted. It was a pointless race, as predicted, and the only media interest was in what it meant for internal Tory leadership politics, as predicted, despite a number of other groups getting involved, who were routinely signed off as fringe - even the Greens who actually had a good platform and tried hard. So, well, I can't see how that comes within a sniff of you being in any sense or any way "spot on".

Indeed

 

[exosculate]

You can argue whatever reasoning you like for why it happened, I stated at the start that the only way to defend our civil liberties was to make a mass movement at this critical time while the media was watching.

People wanted to ponce about with their own personal political choices, rather then make a large protest.

I argued with them and gave them several reasons why what they were talking about doing would only hurt the fight to stop the erosion of our civil liberties.

Those reasons are now, with hindsight, shown to have been correct.

That's because their political analysis is more sophisticated!

 

[Dravinian]

That's because their political analysis is more sophisticated!

Yeah and aren't we all so glad that they are, now we have had a serious campaign that shows that public opinion isn't soundly behind more draconian measures for our 'protection' we can look forward to a freer future...

No wait, that didn't happen and we are looking to a future with even more rigid laws designed to save us from the bad people.

So glad their sophistication has proved so valuable.

 

[exosculate]

Yeah and aren't we all so glad that they are, now we have had a serious campaign that shows that public opinion isn't soundly behind more draconian measures for our 'protection' we can look forward to a freer future...

No wait, that didn't happen and we are looking to a future with even more rigid laws designed to save us from the bad people.

So glad their sophistication has proved so valuable.

Well its just a talking shop here. Actually though I do quite like you. I think you are a decent person.

 

[Dravinian]

Well its just a talking shop here. Actually though I do quite like you. I think you are a decent person.

You know I just get angry, because I see a lot wrong in our society that really isn't that hard to make better and yet no one is doing anything about it.

Then I get confused with myself, cause I want to do something about it, I have ideas I think will make life better I would like to see them tried, but then on the other hand I think...

It is like being in a boat, the boat has a huge hole in it that you can't fix. There are several buckets laying around and you could pick one up and start chucking the water out fast as you can to slow the sinking...but no one else is. They are all sitting around, and you end up thinking, well why the fuck should I pick up a bucket and start bailing while everyone just sits around doing fuck all gaining from my hard work.

Then sooner or later, like now in a time of economic strife, someone sticks their head up all of a sudden like they just noticed our society fucking sucks and says "oh the boat is sinking" and I can't help but turn round and say "Yeah I know, I hope you fucking drown"

Then I look like a bad guy, but from my point of view, I am entirely justified.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I see the great civil liberties revolution some liberals where hoping for hasn't come to pass...what a surprise.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

You can argue whatever reasoning you like for why it happened, I stated at the start that the only way to defend our civil liberties was to make a mass movement at this critical time while the media was watching.

People wanted to ponce about with their own personal political choices, rather then make a large protest.

I argued with them and gave them several reasons why what they were talking about doing would only hurt the fight to stop the erosion of our civil liberties.

Those reasons are now, with hindsight, shown to have been correct.

"Vote tory and the sun will turn into a big blancmange!"
"No. It won't. Don't be silly."
*sun does not turn into a big blancmange*
"Well it's your fault! If you'd voted tory, the sun would have been a big blancmange! I am in hindsight proved to be entirely correct in everything I said."

 

[CyberRose]

I would just like to take this chance to remind people that I was absolutely spot on from the start. Almost everything I said, in great detail, came to pass.

So would all those people that contradicted me, said I was entirely wrong, called into question my conclusions given what people were suggesting.

Would they like to explain to me how it helped having 26 candidates on the stage, or not as the case was? Can they tell me what great new protest has the media attention and spotlight that the country will be looking to in the near future? Can they explain how waiting for their personally perfect candidate helped us in the fight for our civil liberties?

Of course not, because sadly this thread is a microcosm of the left in general, too much in-fighting, too much rigidity, not enough compromise and an inability to see a good opportunity when it stares them in the face.

I am disappointed, I consider myself mainly left wing and I wanted to see a real fight against Civil Liberties, instead what we got was a joke, and now who is talking about 42 Detention and ID Cards?

No one is. So well done all those who wanted your own candidate, you got what you wanted.

You seriously think that if the left parties had all clubbed together they would have won?!

Davis won by over 10,000 votes over ALL the parties that stood!

And even if your intention was to stoke the debate over civil liberties, you seriously think the media would still be paying attention to the arguments from the left?! (Assuming they paid attention to them during the campaign of course)

I think you were a little naive if you ever thought this was anything other than a Tory publicity stunt...

 

[JTG]

You seriously think that if the left parties had all clubbed together they would have won?!

I think he wanted us all to support the Tory

 

[Dravinian]

You seriously think that if the left parties had all clubbed together they would have won?!

No.

It is about making the country sit and up and take notice, it is about getting something I do care deeply about on the agenda, in the public eye, in the media in a meaningful and worthy way.

You are cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Oh it just isn't going far enough, it is backing someone who doesn't believe every single aspect of civil liberties that I do so I will go with my own guy, who only a tiny minority will support, and perhaps some other people will create their own guy and they will have a minority too.

And then government can point out that it is just minority groups complaining.

That post pretty much sums up my views at the time, about what would happen. Posted on the 15/06/08

Which pretty much states exactly what happened at the time the election was held, about a month later.

Nail.....Hit.....Head.

Yet people here are going to pretend like I said the Sun was a blancmange?

So not only were they wrong, but they lack the balls to admit they were wrong to. Bodes well for the future doesn't it.

 

[Dravinian]

I think he wanted us all to support the Tory

In this instance, yes. I wanted people to support David Davis.

It would have made little difference, perhaps would have hurt the Tory Party in the longer run as David Davis and David Cameron might have gone head to head for the leadership.

David Davis DID win the Election anyway, like everyone knew he would before hand. Except instead of doing it with massive public support, he did it with 26 other idiots on a stage and everyone holding a banner for a different person with a different ideal.

So the very point of the action became so watered down as to be meaningless. Exactly as I said it would.

We had an opportunity, we missed it. Instead of holding up our hands and admitting that we missed a great opportunity due to our own petty political prejudices that we couldn't control, we are going to pretend otherwise.

 

[Darios]

We had an opportunity, we missed it. Instead of holding up our hands and admitting that we missed a great opportunity due to our own petty political prejudices that we couldn't control, we are going to pretend otherwise.

Don't take it personally Dravinian. It seems aloof cynicism is the primary currency around these parts. And the groupthink engendered here by dogma and bigotry means its rarely worth sticking your neck out and suggesting something new.

Instead the best path is to probably see this as a good place to come for lolz. You can sit back and watch as the place goes through a cycle of people who - apparently - broadly agree with eachother spitefully and viciously attack (or even troll) one another and then subsequently go through some hilarious hand wringing about the state of p & p, or "the left" ('state' meaning hardly anyone appears interested in participating) and then go back to mutual recrimination and backstabbing with no sense of irony.

And - god forbid - you're one of the handful of people here who don't consider themselves "left" in any typical sense. Since being here (and since seeing the same pattern reflected IRL with living, breathing left groups), I've gone on a path from simply not considering myself as part of the "left" yet remaining sympathetic to parts of it to actively disassociating myself completely from the "left" and anyone who identifies strongly with it.

 

[trevhagl]

Don't take it personally Dravinian. It seems aloof cynicism is the primary currency around these parts. And the groupthink engendered here by dogma and bigotry means its rarely worth sticking your neck out and suggesting something new.

Instead the best path is to probably see this as a good place to come for lolz. You can sit back and watch as the place goes through a cycle of people who - apparently - broadly agree with eachother spitefully and viciously attack (or even troll) one another and then subsequently go through some hilarious hand wringing about the state of p & p, or "the left" ('state' meaning hardly anyone appears interested in participating) and then go back to mutual recrimination and backstabbing with no sense of irony.

And - god forbid - you're one of the handful of people here who don't consider themselves "left" in any typical sense. Since being here (and since seeing the same pattern reflected IRL with living, breathing left groups), I've gone on a path from simply not considering myself as part of the "left" yet remaining sympathetic to parts of it to actively disassociating myself completely from the "left" and anyone who identifies strongly with it.

Very good point. I don't consider myself anything really, i respect anyone who is fighting back against the ultra Tory scum in New Labour and of course the real Tories too

 

[JTG]

In this instance, yes. I wanted people to support David Davis.

that's all we need to know really. you wanted Davis to win unopposed, which is frankly idiotic

 

[exosculate]

Don't take it personally Dravinian. It seems aloof cynicism is the primary currency around these parts. And the groupthink engendered here by dogma and bigotry means its rarely worth sticking your neck out and suggesting something new.

Instead the best path is to probably see this as a good place to come for lolz. You can sit back and watch as the place goes through a cycle of people who - apparently - broadly agree with eachother spitefully and viciously attack (or even troll) one another and then subsequently go through some hilarious hand wringing about the state of p & p, or "the left" ('state' meaning hardly anyone appears interested in participating) and then go back to mutual recrimination and backstabbing with no sense of irony.

And - god forbid - you're one of the handful of people here who don't consider themselves "left" in any typical sense. Since being here (and since seeing the same pattern reflected IRL with living, breathing left groups), I've gone on a path from simply not considering myself as part of the "left" yet remaining sympathetic to parts of it to actively disassociating myself completely from the "left" and anyone who identifies strongly with it.

I don't want to get accused of groupthink, but there's more of us non-aligned leftyish types about than you dare think possible.

 

[exosculate]

that's all we need to know really. you wanted Davis to win unopposed, which is frankly idiotic

I wouldn't say idiotic, but its not a position I could support!

 

[Dravinian]

that's all we need to know really. you wanted Davis to win unopposed, which is frankly idiotic

Yeah because him being opposed made such a huge difference didn't it.

Oh noes, he only won with a 16,000 majority.

Well glad we didn't back him, he might of.....ermmm, won by slightly more? does that really matter in a first past the post election?

No it doesn't.

There was no reason not to support him, and yes, it goes against every fibre of my body to say support the tories, but you know what, I saw this as a good opportunity, a chance for the fight for civil liberties to be massive and in the media and to have an impact on every politician in parliment, an impact that would hopefully manifest itself the next time our civil liberties were being eroded by Government.

You lot didn't see that.

All you could see in your blinkered view was supporting a Tory. The fact that it made no difference? Didn't even matter. You put your political principles before the fight for our civil liberties.

Not even your moral principles, but simply your political ones.

 

[butchersapron]

This is hilarious stuff i have to say. You were proven to be 100% wrong. People like me were proven 100% correct.

 

[The Black Hand]

Yeah because him being opposed made such a huge difference didn't it.

Oh noes, he only won with a 16,000 majority.

Well glad we didn't back him, he might of.....ermmm, won by slightly more? does that really matter in a first past the post election?

No it doesn't.

There was no reason not to support him, and yes, it goes against every fibre of my body to say support the tories, but you know what, I saw this as a good opportunity, a chance for the fight for civil liberties to be massive and in the media and to have an impact on every politician in parliment, an impact that would hopefully manifest itself the next time our civil liberties were being eroded by Government.

You lot didn't see that.

All you could see in your blinkered view was supporting a Tory. The fact that it made no difference? Didn't even matter. You put your political principles before the fight for our civil liberties.

Not even your moral principles, but simply your political ones.

This is a well made argument, and the fight for civil liberties is far more important than the wankered ultra leftists and some anarchists can imagine.

 

[JTG]

Yeah because him being opposed made such a huge difference didn't it.

Oh noes, he only won with a 16,000 majority.

Well glad we didn't back him, he might of.....ermmm, won by slightly more? does that really matter in a first past the post election?

No it doesn't.

There was no reason not to support him, and yes, it goes against every fibre of my body to say support the tories, but you know what, I saw this as a good opportunity, a chance for the fight for civil liberties to be massive and in the media and to have an impact on every politician in parliment, an impact that would hopefully manifest itself the next time our civil liberties were being eroded by Government.

You lot didn't see that.

All you could see in your blinkered view was supporting a Tory. The fact that it made no difference? Didn't even matter. You put your political principles before the fight for our civil liberties.

Not even your moral principles, but simply your political ones.

so if Davis had stood entirely unopposed then what? Nobody in the media would have given a shit about a by election with one candidate in a place very few people could place on a map.

Never mind political principles over civil liberties, it doesn't take much to see this would have been entirely worthless.

 

[The Black Hand]

so if Davis had stood entirely unopposed then what? Nobody in the media would have given a shit about a by election with one candidate in a place very few people could place on a map.

Never mind political principles over civil liberties, it doesn't take much to see this would have been entirely worthless.

True - but your view here is so determinist it is untrue. YOU simply do not know what would have happened.

It IS certainly worth trying just about everything to see what improves the situation.

You would give up before any struggle is fought.

 

[butchersapron]

And where is David 'restrict workers right to strike' Davis' pro-28 days detention civil liberties campaign gone now? It's gone awfully quiet for someone so fiercely committed to the cause and determined to slug it out no matter what hasn't it? Surely it wasn't a tory stunt all along? Who would be so dishonest?

 

[Dravinian]

so if Davis had stood entirely unopposed then what? Nobody in the media would have given a shit about a by election with one candidate in a place very few people could place on a map.

Never mind political principles over civil liberties, it doesn't take much to see this would have been entirely worthless.

But they did give a shit LONG before there were other candidates. This was the Shadow Home Secretary, who resigned from Cabinet to force a by-election, it wasn't a normal by-election.

They were going to be there regardless of what happened.

Why do you suppose I thought it was such a good opportunity? The media spotlight was already firmly on what was going on.

 

[The Black Hand]

And where is David 'restrict workers right to strike' Davis' pro-28 days detention civil liberties campaign gone now? It's gone awfully quiet for someone so fiercely committed to the cause and determined to slug it out no matter what hasn't it? Surely it wasn't a tory stunt all along? Who would be so dishonest?

Doh! You have no conception of becoming at all regardless of your computer geek like claimed knowledge of Dunayevskaya. You remain an ultra left do nothing analyse yourself into irrelevance geek

The point is once a political dynamic is kicked off, the catalyst for its becoming is irrelevant, and what matters is class consciousness and the struggle that evolves from within the becoming mass involvement (liberals etc whoever).

 

[butchersapron]

Give it up attica, you were also arguing for a 'real' pro-civil liberites candiate to stand against Davis elsewhere. It's just pathetic that you'll use anything to attack your enemies, even to the extent of allowing arguing that you and others should allows yourself to be used by a tory.

 

[The Black Hand]

Give it up attica, you were also arguing for a 'real' pro-civil liberites candiate to stand against Davis elsewhere. It's just pathetic that you'll use anything to attack your enemies, even to the extent of allowing arguing that you and others should allows yourself to be used by a tory.

Give what up? Being anti determinist and anti ultra leftist? NEVER!!

There is no contradiction in possible futures, because.... (wait for it - keep the idiots in suspense......................................................................................................)

the future IS UNKNOWN AND DOES CHANGE!

Therefore different paths ARE possible.

I am not 'using anything to attack my enemies' - although it is funny that you see yourself as my enemy? Why did you choose to be that?

I am pulling you up on your obscene and reactionary ultra leftism.

 

[Dravinian]

Someone so fiercly committed who got absolutely no support at all from the wider general public...ie the likes of you and me.

So should he keep up the good fight?

For what reason, to benefit you, to destroy what is left of his career for no benefit and no support?

He already put his career on the line, we left him hanging.

I am hardly surprised he has sloped off in bitter disappointment about what could have been, if only the people of this country were not such petty children.

 

[Darios]

This is hilarious stuff i have to say. You were proven to be 100% wrong. People like me were proven 100% correct.

LOLZ indeed - because this was the most important thing, right?

I see the great civil liberties revolution some liberals where hoping for hasn't come to pass...what a surprise.

Cynical aloofness for the win again! GO URBAN!

I don't want to get accused of groupthink, but there's more of us non-aligned leftyish types about than you dare think possible.

There are? Is this like some kind of mail-esque silent majority that like a sleeping bear is just waiting to be roused?

I'll believe it when I see it.