Crushing defeat for Israel lobby as anti-boycott litigation fails in UK

[ymu]

Quite important in ending apartheid, I thought?

 

[toggle]

can be effective afaik, as long as there's an effect beyond perpetrating the siege mentality.

 

[ymu]

Well, i couldn't say precisely which elements of and tactics in the struggle are doing the trick, but it appears the tide is already turning. Siege mentality or not, Israel is not getting quite the unquestioning support it used to. So something's working. Carry on, all.

 

[frogwoman]

i have thought for quite a while that the days of israel getting unqualified support, if they ever did exist, are now over. think there are other factors apart from popular support that's having an effect, plainly any sort of internal challenge to israel's disgusting regime has to be welcomed but i'm not convinced that israel's allies are changing their tune out of the goodness of their hearts, I think it is to do with the fact that Israel is increasingly recognised as a source of growing instability within a very unstable region, that the nature of its own regime is untenable and volatile, and also that it's no longer as useful as it once was.

with the growing rise of china as an imperialist power we're going to see a lot less knee jerk support for israel on any side in the next few years imo.

 

[frogwoman]

Quite important in ending apartheid, I thought?

i think any boycotts have to be targetted at particular industries such as the weapons industry, i also think it simply has to be from the ground up especially in this situation.

it's a bit nauseating seeing various politicians from countries in the middle east giving lip service (which will change fuck all in practice) to supporting a boycott on israel given their own crimes. a boycott on israel needs to be a starting point into a more wider anti militarism thing imo.

 

[ymu]

.

 

[toggle]

i think any boycotts have to be targetted at particular industries such as the weapons industry, i also think it simply has to be from the ground up especially in this situation.

it's a bit nauseating seeing various politicians from countries in the middle east giving lip service (which will change fuck all in practice) to supporting a boycott on israel given their own crimes. a boycott on israel needs to be a starting point into a more wider anti militarism thing imo.

it also plays straight into the hands of anyone claiming the boycott is anti semitic in origin.

 

[Knotted]

I think it is to do with the fact that Israel is increasingly recognised as a source of growing instability within a very unstable region, that the nature of its own regime is untenable and volatile, and also that it's no longer as useful as it once was.

I'm not sure if I agree with that. Firstly "stability" is newspeak - it doesn't really mean very much other than US/Western interests and sometimes those interests have very little to do with stability eg. invasion of Iraq. Secondly I'm not sure if Israel does destabilise anything in the region unless they do something crazy like bomb Iran. If anything they provide a convenient scapegoat for various tyrannical regimes and when it comes to the civil war in Syria they are keeping their heads down and looking on rather helplessly.

What I think will be lessening the knee jerk support for Israel in the US establishment is Israel's increasingly apparent ineffectiveness as a military force. The 2006 Lebanon war was a disaster and Pillow of Clouds last year was a failure.

 

[redsquirrel]

My main criticism's of the boycott are tactical.

I think, initially at least, that the boycott should be made on the case that the Israeli government is purposely blocking HE access for Palestinians and/or that some Israeli universities are complicit in supporting the occupation, and there should a list of criteria which if fulfilled would have the boycott called off.

For example the University of Johannesburg has implemented a boycott in this way

Decision to set conditions on Ben-Gurion University

Against the backdrop of the publicly supported campaign, UJ’s highest academic body (Senate) voted on Wednesday, 29 September 2010 "not to continue a long-standing relationship with Ben-Gurion University in Israel in its present form" and conditionally terminate its Apartheid-era relationship with BGU.
A fact-finding investigation conducted by the University confirmed BGU's links with the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) and complicity in the Israeli occupation. Accepting the recommendations of the report, the University committed itself to end any research or teaching relationship with Ben-Gurion University that has direct or indirect military links; or in instances where human rights abuses are identified. The University has stated that if BGU violates any of the conditions agreed on by Senate or UJ’s stated principles, which include “solidarity with any oppressed population”, the relationship will be terminated completely after 6 months.

By building up from this base I think (a) the boycott would have more support, (b) may lead to some changes in the here and now and (c) builds momentum.

 

[ymu]

^^That is the basis of the academic boycott and has been for well over a decade.



Stephen Hawking joins the academic boycott but fucking Cambridge University gutlessly fudges the issue.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/may/08/hawking-israel-boycott-furore

The full text of the letter, dated 3 May, said: "I accepted the invitation to the Presidential Conference with the intention that this would not only allow me to express my opinion on the prospects for a peace settlement but also because it would allow me to lecture on the West Bank. However, I have received a number of emails from Palestinian academics. They are unanimous that I should respect the boycott. In view of this, I must withdraw from the conference. Had I attended, I would have stated my opinion that the policy of the present Israeli government is likely to lead to disaster."

 

[Divisive Cotton]

big up the Hawking!

 

[redsquirrel]

^^That is the basis of the academic boycott and has been for well over a decade.

Not in the motion I saw proposed here (Australia). That was just a general academic boycott of all Israeli HE institutions with no end date.

 

[ymu]

Not in the motion I saw proposed here (Australia). That was just a general academic boycott of all Israeli HE institutions with no end date.

Aussies in don't listen to brown fellers shock.

Here's the kind of thing Palestinian academics (you know, those who actually called for the boycott) say:

But Palestinians welcomed Hawking's decision. "Palestinians deeply appreciate Stephen Hawking's support for an academic boycott of Israel," said Omar Barghouti, a founding member of the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement. "We think this will rekindle the kind of interest among international academics in academic boycotts that was present in the struggle against apartheid in South Africa."

Palestinian academics sent a barrage of letters to Hawking in recent weeks in an attempt to persuade him to join the boycott movement.

Samia al-Botmeh, of Birzeit University in the West Bank, said: "We tried to communicate two points to him. First, that Israel is a colonial entity that involves violations of the rights of the Palestinians, including academic freedom, and then asking him to stand in solidarity with Palestinian academic colleagues who have called for solidarity from international academics in the form of boycotting Israeli academia and academic institutions."

Hawking's decision to withdraw from the conference was "fantastic", said Botmeh. "I think it's wonderful that he has acted on moral grounds. That's very ethical and very important for us as Palestinians to know and understand that there are principled colleagues in the world who are willing to take a stand in solidarity with an occupied people."

 

[Streathamite]

*awaits wave of shrill hysteria from Mel Phillips et al*

oh gawd don't say Mad Mel's gonna start posting here?

 

[ymu]

Oh, that would be heaven. Like Rachamim and pbman all rolled into one incoherent bundle of rage.

 

[Streathamite]

Oh, that would be heaven. Like Rachamim and pbman all rolled into one incoherent bundle of rage.

oh christ what have I done?
<vows to gaffertape gob shut>

 

[Streathamite]

Stephen Hawking joins the academic boycott but fucking Cambridge University gutlessly fudges the issue.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/may/08/hawking-israel-boycott-furore

tbh, I think that was more f-up by the uni bureaucracy than intentional cowardice

 

[ymu]

tbh, I think that was more f-up by the uni bureaucracy than intentional cowardice

Intentional cowardice by the uni bureaucracy.

Hawking set the record straight and released his letter.

 

[frogwoman]

I'd like her to post here, she might learn something. Laurie Penny posts here after all

 

[shifting gears]

Long feature on aljazeera this morning about the Hawking boycott. My thoughts on the BDS movement are mixed but in this instance I can't help but feel that someone so respected and of such high international profile joining the boycott must ultimately be a good thing.

 

[ymu]

There's definitely a feeling of the tide turning.

Unfortunately, the Palestinians are split with the most politically difficult and larger part of the country being led by a collaborationist coup. Whatever you think of Hamas (and a discussion of that is far too complicated for this thread), they won a landslide in the West Bank as well as Gaza in 2005 and the PA are the illegitimate rulers who were revealed in the Palestine Papers to be selling out their own people, especially in Gaza but all over the West Bank too. In return for far less than Arafat could have ever taken to the street and won support for.

When I was there in 2002 the main discussion when things got political was can we deal with Israel before dealing with Arafat or can we deal with both at the same time? Now, I would be surprised if it was not, can we deal with Israel before dealing with the PA and I'd be astonished if the consensus answer is yes.

Independence is rarely smooth and doesn't always lead to freedom. And it is almost impossible to have a conversation about what is happening in Palestine today without it diverting into a discussion of anti-semitism and/or Zio-apologism and/or what happened some time in the past. But we can never be allowed to talk about what is happening right now or why that has to stop.

BDS didn't bring down apartheid alone but it played an important part, especially in strengthening the hand of those white South Africans who did want to be decent human beings and part of the international community. But apparently it's just not the same now. I have no idea why. No one ever seems to be able to explain.

Still, at least it stops us talking about what is happening right now and why that has to stop.

 

[frogwoman]

i don't have much time for a lot of pro palestinian activism but with stephen hawking if there's one person i trust to make a rational decision based on facts rather than knee jerk reactions it's him. I don't agree with him in this case but at least he thought about his decision so I respect him for that.

 

[frogwoman]

Independence is rarely smooth and doesn't always lead to freedom. And it is almost impossible to have a conversation about what is happening in Palestine today without it diverting into a discussion of anti-semitism and/or Zio-apologism and/or what happened some time in the past. But we can never be allowed to talk about what is happening right now or why that has to stop.

sorry ymu but there are loads of discussions on why what's going on in israel and palestine is a terrible injustice and why it has to stop

the reason it gets diverted into discussions about anti-semitism is because its a massive problem in the pro palestinian movement and it's one that's put me off being involved because nobody wants to be on a demo with that shit and i know for a fact it has many others. it's like sexism on the left, its no surprise people dont want to get involved if they feel threatened, or feel like it's not for the likes of them

theirs a feeling that the enemy of the enemy is my friend which is why you get an unwillingness to condemn islamist groups who have racist and homophobic views, simply because of their stance on israel, and in my opinion it's not a coincidence that the people at the forefront of this approach of trying to find common grounds with islamist groups such as the SWP and George Galloway have recently become exposed as disgusting misogynists as well

i dont want to explain that im not a zionist every time i talk about this stuff, because i am not. you simply cannot expect that people will be on your side if they feel they are unsafe and a lot of time at this sort of event i quite frankly don't, despite the fact that i'm not a zionist, i've read very widely about the israeli palestinian conflict and i understand what the israeli government is doing, if you have someone who's coming into political activity for the first time what are they going to think?

 

[ymu]

It is always hard for people not to get pushed to extremes when the debate is so intractable. And infuriating on both sides.

But I can always find an Israeli Jewish source who has said anything I want to say. That is never true the other way around unless you include the PA via the Palestine Papers. The core of the argument is settled. The settlement will be delayed forever if the extremists with actual power continue to be able have their cake and eat it by quibbling over the details and provoking violence whenever a political settlement gets dangerously close.

Stop. It's over. Get the fuck out of Palestine and then hammer out the details you prevaricating, cynical, time-wasting cunts. Enough is fucking enough.

 

[frogwoman]

it's not a fucking excuse, i don't want to go to something and have to see and hear that shit and have someone say a load of bollocks about how israel blah blah when you ask them "hold on a minute whats going on here"

in my experience there are a lot of people who might not be personally racist themselves but are willing to excuse or make allowances for other people's racism on this issue

 

[Pickman's model]

i'll say one thing for israel, they invented the memory stick apparently

 

[ymu]

And lead the world in hacking. And state terrorism. First ever plane hi-jacking. Accomplished.

Not sure it is actually possible to boycott Israel fully and remain on-line. We had this problem in East Jerusalem. We made the boycott into a buy Palestinian campaign and asked local shop-keepers to try to stock more lines from Palestine to replace Israeli suppliers and forwarded problems to ISM to think about how they could be mitigated. Feed wasn't being allowed into Jericho nor dairy products out, so last I heard there was plotting to accompany drivers to help challenge checkpoints.

 

[ymu]

This was started by ISMers too: Zatoun fair trade olive oil and soap from Palestine

 

[frogwoman]

bought some soap off of them, they also sold some palestinian stuff in budgens when i used to go but dunno what brand

 

[ymu]

It's a very positive form of support. Boycott does something different. It's all good.