Crushing defeat for Israel lobby as anti-boycott litigation fails in UK

[Knotted]

I too have been waiting for the shrill responses and they have taken their time. Are they really going to denounce the panel as anti-semitic? Surely it's the only consistent course of action open to them...

Here's the first opening salvo by Ben Cohen:

The lesson of the Fraser debacle is simply this: a single employment tribunal in the United Kingdom has created a precedent which will be invoked by every Jew-baiter around the globe; namely, that when Jews raise the question of anti-Semitism in the context of visceral hostility toward Israel, they do so in bad faith. That such a bigoted principle can be established in a democracy famed for its enlightened judicial methods is, perhaps, the most shocking realization of all.

Well I was wrong. Turns out that it's the whole of British justice that is anti-semitic.

 

[Nylock]

I too have been waiting for the shrill responses and they have taken their time. Are they really going to denounce the panel as anti-semitic? Surely it's the only consistent course of action open to them...

Here's the first opening salvo by Ben Cohen:


Well I was wrong. Turns out that it's the whole of British justice that is anti-semitic.

"You're either with us, or you hate us..."

 

[DotCommunist]

*awaits wave of shrill hysteria from Mel Phillips et al*

mel philips, I really don't get why she is accepted on Moral Maze, given comment space in newspapers etc. She's clearly off the register. Nuts. Demonstrably fucking lunar exploration. But still wheeled out as a voice to hearken. It makes no sense at all.

 

[frogwoman]

I too have been waiting for the shrill responses and they have taken their time. Are they really going to denounce the panel as anti-semitic? Surely it's the only consistent course of action open to them...

Here's the first opening salvo by Ben Cohen:


Well I was wrong. Turns out that it's the whole of British justice that is anti-semitic.

well there is quite a bit of it in the british upper classes tbf (who make up i'd probably think the majority of the british judiciary). i'm fully prepared to believe that people have had to put up with nasty anti-semitic shite and it's not been taken seriously, i've experienced it on occasion myself and it's not always taken seriously. some people don't think that it goes on any more because to most people it's socially unacceptable in a way that say slagging off travellers is not and they find it hard to believe that it happens.

however, this judgement is not anti-semitic.i'm not going to cry myself to fucking sleep about it. these people attempted to get a political view (opposing a boycott of israel and presumably, support for the actions of that state) regarded in the same light and regarded as the same thing as racial/religious discrimination. if they had succeeded it would have set a dangerous precedent particularly in light of attempts by various groups within religious groups to ascribe certain political views to everyone in the religion, whether that's progressive or not. perhaps a buddhist could be next to sue the union on the grounds that they're opposing calls by buddhist monks in burma to kill and drive out muslims from the country, and proposing to do something about it, if they did.

 

[Knotted]

well there is quite a bit of it in the british upper classes tbf (who make up i'd probably think the majority of the british judiciary). i'm fully prepared to believe that people have had to put up with nasty anti-semitic shite and it's not been taken seriously, i've experienced it on occasion myself and it's not always taken seriously. some people don't think that it goes on any more because to most people it's socially unacceptable in a way that say slagging off travellers is not and they find it hard to believe that it happens.

I was thinking to myself yesterday that if you go to zionist forums the bigotry against Palestinians and Arabs in general plus Muslims in general flows freely. Whenever I've seen anti-semitism (anywhere outside Stormfront) it's from somebody slyly trying to slip one in. (Not responding to your point, just thinking aloud.)

I'm prepared to believe that anti-semitism hasn't been taken seriously by the union in various cases. I wasn't sure that the claim against the behaviour and the moderator's responses on the activist email list merited such a dismissal and indeed the tribunal made some minor criticisms about union procedures... Apparently the guy to who was dealing with complaints was an anti-Zionist and thus not acceptable and the union failed to provide an alternative. The thing that seems to really upset some people was the Jenna Delich affair which you can google. All in all it doesn't seem to be anything serious, but I haven't been party to the discussions on the list...

I think Anthony Julius's (the claimant's lawyer) strategy was to go for quantity over quality to make a cumulative effect claim. Most of it was really pathetic stuff. Fraser was apparently greeted with stoney silence after a speech in conference. There was "an atmosphere in the room".

 

[frogwoman]

Knotted i've come across people saying it openly, and its all there if you look on for example Youtube comments . not regularly mind you but i've come across it irl a few times, although when i do my reaction tends to be "wtf" rather than get upset about it, because you don't expect to hear it and it sounds proper bizarre. There seems to be a lot of it in the muslim community as well (although like you say, a lot of islamophobia the other way round). A few years ago I was on a demo about Burma blockading a petrol station and we were giving leaflets to passers-by and one of the people who took our leaflets said, "well what are you doing about the jews"? there've been other times I've come across it as well.

the increase in conspiraloon stuff probably isn't helping either. there's also quite a bit of it in schools round here too, people would say quite a bit of nasty shit to other jewish kids when i was at school.

like you say there's probably more islamophobic stuff going on tho.

Obviously the claimants strategy was to "cast the net as wide as possible" and most of his complaints were fucking stupid.

 

[coley]

Just what is meant by an academic boycott?

 

[frogwoman]

Just what is meant by an academic boycott?

think it's british uni's severing links with israeli ones and that sort of thing.

i don't really agree with it for various reasons tbh, don't think it's an anti-semitic position to take though.

 

[coley]

Now I don't know a lot about Israeli university's but I would have thought they would be the appropriate places to foster relationships with if you are trying to foster a climate of understanding, though if they, Israeli unis, are hotbeds of Zionism then I will stand corrected.

 

[frogwoman]

at the end of the day i just think its pointless and possibly counterproductive. especially when you consider that some british unis took and accepted money from people like gaddafi and named fuckin Halls after him

 

[frogwoman]

British universities have links with all sorts of dodgy shit especially oxford and cambridge, but not only them. Still if its a democratic decision of the members (and iirc they haven't even voted for a boycott, only to initiate a debate on it) then i don't necessarily agree with it but i wouldn't say it ought to be challenged on the grounds of racism.

 

[coley]

at the end of the day i just think its pointless and possibly counterproductive. especially when you consider that some british unis took and accepted money from people like gaddafi and named fuckin Halls after him

Shows my ignorance of British unis as well don't it?

 

[DotCommunist]

British universities have links with all sorts of dodgy shit especially oxford and cambridge, but not only them. Still if its a democratic decision of the members (and iirc they haven't even voted for a boycott, only to initiate a debate on it) then i don't necessarily agree with it but i wouldn't say it ought to be challenged on the grounds of racism.

getting le pen in the other day for a chat was particularly galling. It's not like anyone of their class would ever have to deal with the consequences of facism is it? so happy happy aren't we so daring and open

 

[Pickman's model]

There was a shitlist that MacShane wasnt already on?

he now comes before jonathan mcshane, the hackney councillor, in my shitlist.

 

[laptop]

The tribunal

spent an entire day listening to recordings of Congress debates

 

[ymu]

Now I don't know a lot about Israeli university's but I would have thought they would be the appropriate places to foster relationships with if you are trying to foster a climate of understanding, though if they, Israeli unis, are hotbeds of Zionism then I will stand corrected.

That's the counter-argument, but the academic boycott is supported by a number of high profile Israeli academics working in Israeli universities and the opposition is mostly strongly Zionist.

The message is: if Israel does not allow Palestinian universities to operate as normal, Israeli universities will not be allowed to operate as normal either. It is nothing to do with where individual academics stand politically, just that Israel cannot be allowed normalcy whilst it denies normalcy to others.

In practice, it means no formal collaborations with academics from Israeli universities and no peer-reviewing work which comes from Israeli universities. Israelis who work elsewhere are, of course, unaffected; non-Israelis working within Israel's universities are.

 

[Knotted]

Here's a surprisingly open and honest article by (Zionist) Adam Wagner:

It certainly did crystallise broader themes and issues. But not the ones the cheerleaders hoped for. As said above, it is possible that this Tribunal reached a perverse decision. No doubt some will say so once the recriminations begin to fly. I imagine some will even accuse the Judge of anti-Semitism. But assuming for a moment that he was right, we should, as a community, be embarrassed by this ruling. It involved not just the looney fringe but central figures in the community, who have been branded exaggerators, manipulators and arrogant liars. More importantly, the ‘anti-Zionism equals racism’ argument is plainly bankrupt and has no purchase in wider society. We should move on to something which might actually work. And that is the lesson of this sorry Passover saga.

 

[laptop]

I read the whole judgement.

What's missing from accounts so far is the Tribunal's pondering whether the plaintiff was a mere placeman for the campaign:

though his sincerity is not in question, his political experience showed at a number of points. He veered away from awkward questions.

We were also struck by the contrast between his simple, down-to-earth style and the magnificent prose in which his written case was couched. We do not believe that it would ever occur to him to think that as a member of the Respondents he inhabits an environment of “thickening toxicity”.

 

[Casually Red]

Here's a surprisingly open and honest article by (Zionist) Adam Wagner:

it appears that in a litigious attempt to force everyone to accept their legitimacy the zionists only managed to underscore their own lack of legitimacy, and the illegitimate methods they use to bolster their illegitimate position . Even Wagners acknowleging the own goal .

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think Anthony Julius's (the claimant's lawyer) strategy was to go for quantity over quality to make a cumulative effect claim. Most of it was really pathetic stuff. Fraser was apparently greeted with stoney silence after a speech in conference. There was "an atmosphere in the room".

Frankly, Julius is an embarrassment to everyone except the pro-Zionist British Jewish establishment he's a member of. Have you read his (remaindered in all good bookshops) tome on British anti-semitism? From someone with his education, it's a piss-poor effort at scholarship.

 

[ViolentPanda]

at the end of the day i just think its pointless and possibly counterproductive. especially when you consider that some british unis took and accepted money from people like gaddafi and named fuckin Halls after him

Saudi apologists like Wafic Said get to endow business schools.

 

[Knotted]

Frankly, Julius is an embarrassment to everyone except the pro-Zionist British Jewish establishment he's a member of. Have you read his (remaindered in all good bookshops) tome on British anti-semitism? From someone with his education, it's a piss-poor effort at scholarship.

I haven't read it. I've seen it reviewed by Antony Lerman who seemed to think the earlier chapters were OK but the chapters on the modern period were more problematic...

 

[ViolentPanda]

I haven't read it. I've seen it reviewed by Antony Lerman who seemed to think the earlier chapters were OK but the chapters on the modern period were more problematic...

He's basically done an A.N. Wilson, choosing sources that fit his thesis, and only giving glancing reference (if any) to sources that don't fit his narrative.
I mean, I can see why he's done so, but he shouldn't then pretend he's written a scholarly work. IYSWIM.

 

[frogwoman]

Here's a surprisingly open and honest article by (Zionist) Adam Wagner:

I don't like the "we should as a community be embarrassed" thing but looks like a good article.

 

[frogwoman]

Saudi apologists like Wafic Said get to endow business schools.

Well yeah quite which is why I cant get that enthusiastic about the Israel boycott (one of the reasons anyway) the whole history of foreign relations and british universities is fucking sordid.

 

[Knotted]

A rather disturbingly unbalanced article in the Jewish Chronicle about Fraser's response here: Union case was 'HItler's Legacy'. He's obviously a fragile character and hasn't got a firm grasp of the issues or even the nature of the tribunal - did he really think that the purpose of the tribunal was to rule on the definition of anti-semitism? I feel sorry for him to be honest. It sounds as if he's near having a nervous breakdown. Anthony Julius has given him horrendous legal advice and nobody seems to have tried explaining the realities of the case and the situation. @ Julius and Dysch egging him on.

 

[frogwoman]

A rather disturbingly unbalanced article in the Jewish Chronicle about Fraser's response here: Union case was 'HItler's Legacy'. He's obviously a fragile character and hasn't got a firm grasp of the issues or even the nature of the tribunal - did he really think that the purpose of the tribunal was to rule on the definition of anti-semitism? I feel sorry for him to be honest. It sounds as if he's near having a nervous breakdown. Anthony Julius has given him horrendous legal advice and nobody seems to have tried explaining the realities of the case and the situation. @ Julius and Dysch egging him on.

that paper isn't worth the paper it's printed on a lot of the time.

 

[laptop]

It sounds as if he's near having a nervous breakdown. Anthony Julius has given him horrendous legal ... @ Julius and Dysch egging him on.

Reading between the lines, I think the tribunal thought Julius was... 'ang on, Julius is a lawyer looking for cases.

The tribunal commented that his written evidence didn't sound like him at all.

 

[phildwyer]

the academic boycott is supported by a number of high profile Israeli academics working in Israeli universities

Is this really true? Everyone I met in Israel thought the boycott was a horrible idea. So do I.

 

[frogwoman]

i'm just always sceptical about "boycotts" as a tactica anyway