critique of loon theories around banking/money creation/the federal reserve

[Blagsta]

I am repeating the post.

You've just C&P a load of waffle.

What I am looking for is balance-sheet type stuff for a fractional-reserve bank.

And the answer to this question:

"are you saying that the bank needs cash reserves equal to the value of the loan being made, or that the bank needs cash reserves equal to all its demand liabilities?"

Words fail me on how dense you're being.

 

[xslavearcx]

sorry can't be bothered going through all the posts but is jazz on the side of the "loon theories around banking"? thanks

 

[sihhi]

sihhi your post 1044: I am not sure prohibition has a basis from all scripture. The wedding at cana?

There are many anti-drinking parts of the bible though - but, yes, prohibition is another step.
A google search gives the first letter to the Corinthians has all the stuff about the body as a temple of the Lord as being the basic foundation for it.

1 Corinthians 3:17 - If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which ye are.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 - Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? etc

The Old Testament is much harder - more of it too:

Isaiah 28:7-8 And these also stagger from wine and reel from beer: Priests and prophets stagger from beer and are befuddled with wine; they reel from beer, they stagger when seeing visions, they stumble when rendering decisions.
All the tables are covered with vomit and there is not a spot without filth.

I don't have a complete list of all Fr Coughlin's radio speeches/sermons but he was tapping into/reviving in the 1920s at least a vein of Social Christianity - a mostly presbyterian and evangelical movement at the turn of the century in the ? Progressive Era.

The famous quote (also revealing the sexism certainly within parts of that movement) is Reverend Mark Matthews, head of Seattle's First Presbyterian Church declaring around 1902?: "The saloon is the most fiendish, corrupt, hell-soaked institution that ever crawled out of the slime of the eternal pit. ... It takes your sweet innocent daughter, robs her of her virtue, and transforms her into a brazen, wanton harlot. ... It is the open sore of this land."

There were similar voices in Michigan at the same time which Ford as a small town/village man lived through and was influenced by.

Coughlin's innovation was to combine all Christian denominations and with a wider economic populism.

 

[JimW]

...

What I am looking for is balance-sheet type stuff for a fractional-reserve bank.

And the answer to this question:

"are you saying that the bank needs cash reserves equal to the value of the loan being made, or that the bank needs cash reserves equal to all its demand liabilities?"

This just reads as "what I'm looking for is confirmation of my own misconceptions because I don't even understand the question I asked myself, let alone your several answers to it."

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The Northern Rock example is a good one in this instance, I think, Jazzz. It might take this discussion forward if you were to explain in a couple of sentences why NR went bust. Then everyone could move on.

 

[xslavearcx]

There are many anti-drinking parts of the bible though - but, yes, prohibition is another step.

i love it when people start quoting the bible - there should be more of that!

Although drinking is not prohibited it is a sign of piety within the Torah for people to take the nazirite oath, which included non consumption of intoxicants. A fair few scholars on early christianity have put forward the claim that the early christians were all about that which is certainly backed up in various places of the new testment, including st paul taking such an oath under the instructions of james in the book of acts

 

[frogwoman]

At certain points in Jewish festivals we're actually commanded to drink (and get drunk) though but it's always in a ritualistic way.

 

[sihhi]

That's exactly what it is. The SPGB in their only conscious bit of activism in the last 50 years have decided to hold joint events with these loons. Lots of past discussion on here.

SPGB held a widely publicised meeting with British Union of Fascists as well.

 

[xslavearcx]

At certain points in Jewish festivals we're actually commanded to drink (and get drunk) though but it's always in a ritualistic way.

Always felt judiaism has a much more healthy approach to the enjoyment of the things of this world that xtianity has.

 

[frogwoman]

SPGB held a widely publicised meeting with British Union of Fascists as well.

what the fuck, why?

 

[frogwoman]

Always felt judiaism has a much more healthy approach to the enjoyment of the things of this world that xtianity has.

it can do aye. Not always though.

 

[sihhi]

i love it when people start quoting the bible - there should be more of that!

Although drinking is not prohibited it is a sign of piety within the Torah for people to take the nazirite oath, which included non consumption of intoxicants. A fair few scholars on early christianity have put forward the claim that the early christians were all about that which is certainly backed up in various places of the new testment, including st paul taking such an oath under the instructions of james in the book of acts

Yes this is all accurate, the King James Version of Numbers has it as:

"Again the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When a man or woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to dedicate himself to the Lord, he shall abstain from wine and strong drink; he shall drink no vinegar, whether made from wine or strong drink, nor shall he drink any grape juice nor eat fresh or dried grapes. All the days of his separation he shall not eat anything that is produced by the grape vine, from the seeds even to the skin.‘All the days of his vow of separation no razor shall pass over his head. He shall be holy until the days are fulfilled for which he separated himself to the Lord; he shall let the locks of hair on his head grow long."

 

[love detective]

The bank does need to fund its loan, though, Jazz. Whether through pre-existing deposits or through a swift accounting procedure that can take the deposit created by the loan and use that to fund it. Banks have to balance their books. As soon as they can't they're fucked. You would agree with that, no?

He wouldn't even agree with that though - as this bat shit post here from him demonstrates:-

circulation is simply not necessary. To give a simple example, if someone deposits £1000 hard cash, the bank doesn't have to pass that £1000 around with other banks or itself making loans that eventually add to credit creation of maybe 30 times. It can simply make thirty loans of £1000 straight off the bat.

The above is enough in and off itself to convince anyone that Jazzz does not have a clue about how money, banking and accounting works. No one in their right mind who knew even a smidgen about these things could write what he wrote above.

 

[xslavearcx]

it can do aye. Not always though.

heres me with my blanket terms for the complexities of massive religious currents

i converted to islam for ten years, and much preferred the buzz of self righteousness that i had to any intoxicant i ever took prior to that

 

[littlebabyjesus]

He wouldn't even agree with that though - as this bat shit post here from him demonstrates:-

Well yes, that's plain wrong. The need for circulation seems to be the bit Jazzz is missing.

But I'll stick to his current posts. I've posted stuff on this topic in the past that I now acknowledge was wrong. That said, it is disappointing to see Jazzz still stuck on the full reserve idea. It appears to be something of a fixed idea.

 

[frogwoman]

heres me with my blanket terms for the complexities of massive religious currents

i converted to islam for ten years, and much preferred the buzz of self righteousness that i had to any intoxicant i ever took prior to that

mate, i know all about that self righteous buzz

 

[love detective]

Well yes, that's plain wrong. The need for circulation seems to be the bit Jazzz is missing.

with all due respect he's missing plenty more than that

And note to Jazz, remember only earlier today you were claiming that:-

LBJ is the only other poster who I think has any grasp of it

 

[xslavearcx]

mate, i know all about that self righteous buzz

yeah... lifes just never been the same since ... sigh... lol

 

[sihhi]

what the fuck, why?

Goodness knows. To encourage them to move one step on from opposing finance capital so that they opposed industrial and land capital aswell?

It gets a bit mental at times, almost criticising the Blackshirts not so much for painting up slogans like PJ - Perish Judaea all over the place or street attacks on Jews, but for wearing the same colour:
"In one case he said that the Utopians were so keen about uniformity that they made all suits of clothes the same size. This is, of course, not Socialism, but capitalism gone mad, but talking of uniformity, what about the Fascist aim of compelling us all to wear shirts of the same colour?"

 

[sihhi]

2) This circulation is simply not necessary. To give a simple example, if someone deposits £1000 hard cash, the bank doesn't have to pass that £1000 around with other banks or itself making loans that eventually add to credit creation of maybe 30 times. It can simply make thirty loans of £1000 straight off the bat.

Is there a large enough ?

 

[frogwoman]

yeah... lifes just never been the same since ... sigh... lol

it's not been the same for me since either.

if there's one thing judaism has in it's defence though, it's the fact that it's a lot better in general at coping with the whole idea of people doubting god's existence and having an ambivalent relationship to him if he does exist, than a lot of other religious traditions. there are exceptions to this of course but most jews would understand perfectly well why somebody wouldn't believe in god at all and wouldn't try to force them into accepting their point of view.

of course, there are always exceptions to this, but when comparing it to something like evangelical christians, in some ways it's generally a bit more healthier. In others ..

 

[frogwoman]

Goodness knows. To encourage them to move one step on from opposing finance capital so that they opposed industrial and land capital aswell?

It gets a bit mental at times, almost criticising the Blackshirts not so much for painting up slogans like PJ - Perish Judaea all over the place or street attacks on Jews, but for wearing the same colour:
"In one case he said that the Utopians were so keen about uniformity that they made all suits of clothes the same size. This is, of course, not Socialism, but capitalism gone mad, but talking of uniformity, what about the Fascist aim of compelling us all to wear shirts of the same colour?"

For christ's sake

 

[love detective]

Answer, one by one, the seven questions asked by love detective in yield's post above.

How you getting on with these by the way Jazzz?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

with all due respect he's missing plenty more than that

It's the main bit, I think. Circulation is what gives money its meaning. It's what money is for. Grasping that would lead to a lot of other things falling into place.

 

[SpineyNorman]

At certain points in Jewish festivals we're actually commanded to drink (and get drunk) though but it's always in a ritualistic way.

This sounds way better than mass. Teh jooz don't just control the world through money - they also get pissed at church!

How exactly would one go about signing up to this Judaism malarkey?

 

[love detective]

It's the main bit, I think. Circulation is what gives money its meaning. It's what money is for. Grasping that would lead to a lot of other things falling into place.

circulation is important, but I would disagree that this alone is what gives money its meaning

money isn't just something that sits around orphan like waiting to be given meaning by something

in capitalism for example, a synthesis of the production of commodities by alienated labour and the subsequent circulation of the product of that labour (including the production & circulation of wage labour itself) is the essence to which money is a manifestation off. This is why I always refer to people like Jazzz as 'money first' loons - i.e. they never look at the underlying essence that produces the phenomenal forms of money etc. they instead just look at the phenomenal form of something, money for example, as though it exists independently from the underlying social relations that condition and discipline it

 

[SpineyNorman]

SPGB held a widely publicised meeting with British Union of Fascists as well.

Have you got any more info about this sihhi, links or anything like that?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

circulation is important, but I would disagree that this alone is what gives money its meaning

money isn't just something that sits around orphan like waiting to be given meaning by something

in capitalism for example, a synthesis of the production of commodities by alienated labour and the subsequent circulation of the product of that labour (including the production & circulation of wage labour itself) is the essence to which money is a manifestation off

Ok, yes, circulation alone doesn't give it its meaning. It is necessary, though. I agree with your last paragraph, and it makes the crucial point that without the real things whose value it represents, it is worthless.

That's mostly what I meant. It is the link to real things and how that happens that appears to be missing from Jazzz's posts.

I also agree that many of the proposed 'solutions', including full reserve lending (which I still don't quite understand, tbh, despite reading Jazzz's link on it quite carefully), don't appear to solve anything at all. It is misidentifying the problem.

 

[sihhi]

Have you got any more info about this sihhi, links or anything like that?

The link to the transcript:

It gets a bit mental at times, almost criticising the Blackshirts not so much for painting up slogans like PJ - Perish Judaea all over the place or street attacks on Jews, but for wearing the same colour:
"In one case he said that the Utopians were so keen about uniformity that they made all suits of clothes the same size. This is, of course, not Socialism, but capitalism gone mad, but talking of uniformity, what about the Fascist aim of compelling us all to wear shirts of the same colour?"

It's basic SPGB principles - seek out debate with all opponents, stand in all elections, write 'World Socialism' in all ballot papers without SPGB candidates. See here:

"The SPGB has always argued that political ideas should not be suppressed but debated in the open. Workers must understand that the political ideas supporting the capitalist class whether from supporters of the British National Party Party, Greens and Liberal Democrats do not serve the interest of workers. That is why the SPGB debated Moseley’s British Union of Fascists in the 1930’s and attempted to debate the National Front in the 1970’s. Those who wanted to prevent the working class from hearing Socialist arguments against The British Union of Fascists and the National Front were first the Communist Party and then the Socialist Workers Party. They were the real fascists."

 

[frogwoman]

The link to the transcript:



It's basic SPGB principles - seek out debate with all opponents, stand in all elections, write 'World Socialism' in all ballot papers without SPGB candidates. See here:

"The SPGB has always argued that political ideas should not be suppressed but debated in the open. Workers must understand that the political ideas supporting the capitalist class whether from supporters of the British National Party Party, Greens and Liberal Democrats do not serve the interest of workers. That is why the SPGB debated Moseley’s British Union of Fascists in the 1930’s and attempted to debate the National Front in the 1970’s. Those who wanted to prevent the working class from hearing Socialist arguments against The British Union of Fascists and the National Front were first the Communist Party and then the Socialist Workers Party. They were the real fascists."

Fair enough but the only people turning up to these meetings would probably either be ideologically convinced SPGB members or fash. They wouldn't be likely to convince anyone of their brand of utopian socialism who wasn't already convinced. Did many (any) BUF members or sympathisers join the SPGB as a result of this?