Criminalising Pregnant Mothers who Drink

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Oh god Wells is here.

This'll end well(s)

/shitjoke

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

I had the misfortune to hear the Radio 5 live phone in on this subject.........although there were actually some good balanced viewpoints there was the usual sanctimonious judgemental claptrap and the portraying of pregnant women as if they should somehow be a sort of madonna figure............

I hate those phone ins. Causes more stress for me than it's worth IMO.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I had the misfortune to hear the Radio 5 live phone in on this subject.........although there were actually some good balanced viewpoints there was the usual sanctimonious judgemental claptrap and the portraying of pregnant women as if they should somehow be a sort of madonna figure............

It's bollocks isn't it. As if the moment someone gets pregnant everything they are and face magically falls away and they are solely reduced to the dividing cells in their womb...

 

[mentalchik]

It's a bit like the abortion debate................unfortunately a developing fetus/baby (whatever you wish to call it) comes with an independent person i.e a woman wrapped around it

 

[Thora]

but this isn't a court and that's not the position I'm putting forward, nor would I because I have no wish whatsoever to erode the right to choose.

the case is being put forward on behalf of a six year old child. She matters.

How would you feel if this was a six year old child with down's syndrome, whose mother had become pregnant at 40 and had declined all screening tests in pregnancy?

Or a child brain damaged by the mother getting listeria during pregnancy from eating unpasteurised cheese? Even though midwives had warned her to avoid it?

How about if this 6 year old had birth defects due to the mother having uncontrolled diabetes? Or due to the mother continuing to take something like lithium to benefit her own health?

 

[Awesome Wells]

frivolous ?

drinking and smoking.

 

[Awesome Wells]

I had the misfortune to hear the Radio 5 live phone in on this subject.........although there were actually some good balanced viewpoints there was the usual sanctimonious judgemental claptrap and the portraying of pregnant women as if they should somehow be a sort of madonna figure............

Really?

The snippet I heard, not all admittedly, was some bloke arguing that anyone who says pregnant people shouldn't smoke or drink is the worst kind of liberal killjoy, nanny state, etc.

 

[trashpony]

drinking and smoking.

Yeah because drinking a bottle of vodka a day is the life of fucking riley

 

[Awesome Wells]

Oh god Wells is here.

ah the voice of tolerance, where points of view, even evidence, are welcomed and people are not marginalised on the basis of misrepresentation and mischaracterisation.

 

[goldenecitrone]

I wonder if men were able to get pregnant, would they stop drinking? I think we all know the answer to that one. You'd have babies called Carling, Guinness and Stella.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Yeah because drinking a bottle of vodka a day is the life of fucking riley

i made no comment on drinking bottles of vodka daily what on earth are you talking about?

Drinking alchohol is frivolous. It can also be harmful, addictive and dangerous, particularly if you are carrying a baby. Do you disagree?

 

[newbie]

Isn't the obvious answer that the criminal justice system is not appropriate for meeting the needs of both daughter and mother

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

it's explicitly a test case, so as well as the rights of those two parties there are another 80 or so specific cases reliant on the outcome and some 250 per year children born with FAS. So if the justice system is not the place, where is?

I presume you agree that society as a whole does not want preventable harm to be caused to children? If this case recognises that the child victim has rights that cannot be dismissed then there is clarity about the legal duty on the woman herself to not cause harm, also, as I mentioned above, there will be explicit duties placed on all professionals involved in the care of future expectant women in this position as well as at least some implicit responsibility that will be much clearer to friends and relatives.

If that does not happen, what mechanism will serve to protect future children from this harm? Or is society expected to accept that some, specific individuals can behave as they please and any damage caused is merely collateral?

 

[newbie]

I'm pointing out that people have emotional conflicts, moral choices involve emotions, people have ambivalence about choices, they're not machines.

ok fair enough. Are there any other circumstances where an adult causes harm to a child where this ambivalence comes into play? Harm of any sort but perhaps especially whole-life physical and developmental harm.

 

[weltweit]

There were moves to make it illegal to smoke in a car in which there were children, on the grounds that second hand smoke caused harm to the children. I don't know that it was to be a criminal offence but there were planned to be fines of some kind attached.

 

[Thora]

If that does not happen, what mechanism will serve to protect future children from this harm? Or is society expected to accept that some, specific individuals can behave as they please and any damage caused is merely collateral?

Yes, 100% women should behave exactly as they please whether they are pregnant or not. They should also be able to become pregnant or end a pregnancy entirely as they wish.

 

[newbie]

I'm still not clear on the "deliberatly cause harm" bit here.

why not? at what point is the adult in this not acting with sufficient agency for the actions that cause harm to be described as deliberate?

 

[Awesome Wells]

Yes, 100% women should behave exactly as they please whether they are pregnant or not. They should also be able to become pregnant or end a pregnancy entirely as they wish.

Should pregnant women be allowed to punch men in the face?

Or women for that matter

 

[killer b]

ok fair enough. Are there any other circumstances where an adult causes harm to a child where this ambivalence comes into play? Harm of any sort but perhaps especially whole-life physical and developmental harm.

Loads, just read the thread: whether a pregnant woman should eat unpasteurised cheese, whether she should smoke, or inject heroin, or ride a bicycle, or even get pregnant over a certain age. There are countless things that a woman can do in pregnancy that could cause life-long harm to her child.

Which is next, once we've criminalised boozing in pregnancy?

 

[coley]

I wonder if men were able to get pregnant, would they stop drinking? I think we all know the answer to that one. You'd have babies called Carling, Guinness and Stella.

Laproaig?

 

[killer b]

Should pregnant women be allowed to punch men in the face?

oh yes. it should be an obligation, in some cases.

 

[newbie]

I've always seen selfishness as a symptom of addiction rather than a cause.

I don't disagree with that. However there is a person whose entire life is affected by this particular selfishness which places it into a context where sympathy for the addict is

How would you feel if this was a six year old child with down's syndrome, whose mother had become pregnant at 40 and had declined all screening tests in pregnancy?

Or a child brain damaged by the mother getting listeria during pregnancy from eating unpasteurised cheese? Even though midwives had warned her to avoid it?

How about if this 6 year old had birth defects due to the mother having uncontrolled diabetes? Or due to the mother continuing to take something like lithium to benefit her own health?

I would feel as I said above, that we are discussing a specific issue and I'm not getting into whatiffery

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If that does not happen, what mechanism will serve to protect future children from this harm? Or is society expected to accept that some, specific individuals can behave as they please and any damage caused is merely collateral?

As has been stated many times on this thread already, this is a public health issue. Generally, criminalising addiction is an ongoing public health disaster. Specifically, criminalising excessive drinking for pregnant women is likely to make them less, not more, likely to seek help; more, not less, likely to try to hide their problems. If it happens, it will be a public health disaster.

But these fuckers are not even concerned with public health. They've seen pound signs and a way to get hold of money in an age of slashed budgets. Every single person involved in bringing this action should be fucking ashamed of themselves.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Laproaig?

Only the more mature pregnant dads.

 

[weepiper]

I don't disagree with that. However there is a person whose entire life is affected by this particular selfishness which places it into a context where sympathy for the addict is

I would feel as I said above, that we are discussing a specific issue and I'm not getting into whatiffery

Do you understand what 'test case' actually means? Because you keep using it without any apparent understanding of what will happen if this is a successful prosecution.

 

[ViolentPanda]

and yet...

there is a six-year-old girl with “growth retardation”. She has been caused harm by something that was done to her. Her life will be worse than she should expect, worse than her peers to whom harm has not been done. She is 6, with a life expectancy of 82.

There are hundreds of thousands of children in the UK alone affected by various teratogenic substances. Would that pro-lifers and indeed the government showed as much interest in their fate.

She has to have a say in this.

or, at the very least, an advocate.

 

[coley]

Only the more mature pregnant dads.

 

[Citizen66]

It'd have been handy if pregnancies happened outside of the body - a luxury afforded to birds and frogs who are never going to be troubled by the temptation of the bottle.

 

[andysays]

Should pregnant women be allowed to punch men in the face?

Or women for that matter

Anyone should be allowed to punch in the face someone who comes out with a stupid comment like that, or at least be able to claim provocation if they're prosecuted.

 

[Thora]

I would feel as I said above, that we are discussing a specific issue and I'm not getting into whatiffery

The "specific issue" is whether a child who was damaged as a foetus can hold their mother criminally responsible. That covers a whole load more things than just alcohol - legal and illegal drugs, lifestyle choices, medical conditions.

 

[trashpony]

i made no comment on drinking bottles of vodka daily what on earth are you talking about?

Drinking alchohol is frivolous. It can also be harmful, addictive and dangerous, particularly if you are carrying a baby. Do you disagree?

Perhaps you should familiarise yourself with the details of this case then before you make any more fatuous statements