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Even if its a problem for flu not covid, that would be no reason to abandon that advice in winter when they are worried both about flu pressures combining with covid pressures on hospitals, and of the possible much worse health outcomes if people get infected with flu and this pandemic virus at the same time. And the effects of flu cases on clogging up covid-19 testing systems, and the effects of a flu epidemic on staff absence rates. Hence the extra emphasis on flu vaccinations this year.
 
elbows said:
I don't even think herd immunity via vaccination is on the main agenda. Reducing hospitalisations and deaths to a level that the system can take in its stride is more like the aim.
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This was pretty much confirmed in the press conference, but I should say current phase agenda, since the main agenda I speak of is the one they can go for with currently available info for the initial vaccines, have to wait for more data on several matters before the feasibility of a population immunity plan could be properly evaluated and a bigger agenda attempted.

As someone under 50 with no identified major Covid-19 health condition risks, the vaccine is currently still not on my personal radar for example.
 
elbows said:
Even if its a problem for flu not covid, that would be no reason to abandon that advice in winter when they are worried both about flu pressures combining with covid pressures on hospitals, and of the possible much worse health outcomes if people get infected with flu and this pandemic virus at the same time. And the effects of flu cases on clogging up covid-19 testing systems, and the effects of a flu epidemic on staff absence rates. Hence the extra emphasis on flu vaccinations this year.
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I've continually said that one of the things that the 'rona has demonstrated is how stupidly casual "society" is about infectious disease - I was saying this before pandemic time - so I am absolutely fine with keeping on saying "wash your hands and don't touch stuff other people have touched", even if after a while we'll be expected by "society" (capitalists) to go right back to normal. Anything which might have a long term effect on people's behaviour to counteract the demands of capital is great.

I am certainly washing my hands every time I can, even if I've not touched anything. I don't disinfect my groceries and phone any more though.
 
Supine said:
In NZ there was some tracing that showed things like a door knob did I think.
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Had a quick read of this reasonably recent wired article summing up opinion on fomite transmission (most in-depth thing googling 'new zealand fomite')... It seems basically still very little evidence. There is an NZ case mentioned, but the article says aerosol transmission now seems more likely in those cases. A door knob is also in there, but relating to a friend of microbiologist. I mean, it's not a paper, but there didn't seem to be much out there.
 
The39thStep said:
No I’m drinking tea watching the football . Can you explain what you meant in your response to the person who went to the pub if I’ve got the wrong end of the stick ?
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The person who went to the pub then said they were just as safe as supermarkets really and the whole thing is terribly unfair on the hospitality sector (which it is, but not because pubs are somehow safe)? You may be watching the football, but you've clearly been following that discussion.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
I certainly did go to pubs when it was warmer and I could sit outside, but sod (a) sitting inside anywhere with other people - I'll go on tubes but that's it and not for long and not if they're busy - and (b) sitting there eating a scotch egg very slowly so that I can have a few beers.

OTOH I am not the sort of pub goer who it is most important to discourage (I go on my own to chill and try not to sit next to other people regardless of pandemics). Whether the regulations will put people who do mix in groups off, I don't know.
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Similar. I mean, I'll meet friends in the pub, not a massive group but otherwise go on my own and see who's there, or not. I've been to pubs several times since July, including sitting inside, none since Nov 5th obviously. I would avoid those that were crowded though. Well actually walked out of a couple that were making me feel uncomfortable. Loud and busy. The 2 I mainly use have been OK in this respect.

I think we've all been drawing our own lines based on perceived risk. Only been on the bus a couple of times since March but that's more cos I can't stand waiting for them if I can walk. Fairly comfortable using tube and train several times but not at peak times, travelling into London and back from Bristol.
 
Cid said:
The person who went to the pub then said they were just as safe as supermarkets really and the whole thing is terribly unfair on the hospitality sector (which it is, but not because pubs are somehow safe)? You may be watching the football, but you've clearly been following that discussion.
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Thanks however I was referring to CupidStunts final comment to the poster who went to the pub .
 
It is daft to argue pubs are safer than supermarkets. Not to say either are particularly dangerous. It depends on all the other factors that can apply any where people are in numbers in doors. Ventilation, crowding, capacity for keeping away from other households. The disinhibiting effect of alcohol adds an extra risk element though, can't deny that.
 
Van-Tams three c's (that he's borrowed from Japan) plus d and v that he adds on came up yet again in the press conference. They are far from the worst way of thinking about much of the pub risk too.

To quote from some random article I located from a previous occasion a little earlier this year where JVT went on about this:

But what are the three Cs?

– Closed spaces: This sets out that it cannot be assumed that large rooms are safe, or that small rooms are unsafe. Instead, ventilation is very important.

– Crowded places: The advice is to avoid crowded spaces and make room for other people – two metres or more.

– Close contact settings – People are asked to avoid conversations in close contact settings, as the virus can be spread through droplets created by speech.

The advice is to avoid the three Cs, in addition to maintaining the hand washing and face covering measures that are recommended.
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Prof Van-Tam said that as well as the three Cs, people need to be aware of duration and volume.

He explained that there is increasingly strong evidence about shouting and singing as pressure points on the virus in terms of making the expulsion of virus laden particles, go further.

When speaking about duration he said that the duration of time someone spent in one of the three Cs would also impact the likelihood of Covid-19 being spread.
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www.eveningexpress.co.uk

Home

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www.eveningexpress.co.uk www.eveningexpress.co.uk
 
And to be clear, I use the term pandemic pub wankers to refer to people who take a particular ignorant stance about risk in those settings. I do not attach it to everyone that has happened to visit a pub in this pandemic. Although if I had my way pubs in London and elsewhere would not have opened right now.
 
A lot of of people view the pub as their church insofar as its where they go to meet people and have a chat. Most towns and villages were set up around churches and pubs, indeed they're probably the oldest buildings in most inhabited places.

Wetherspoons pubs in particular seem to be full of older people in the daytime, those that live on their own. They nurse a pint for hours and just.... have someone to talk to. Or watch the world go by.

At the moment, all those people are indoors. On their own.

So pubs do have a function in terms of helping mental health.

I know there's a point I'm trying to make but I can't quite get it right. But it's something about people don't always go to the pub to get pissed.
 
I understand and sympathise with all of AverageJoe 's post, especially as (in normal times) I often go to the pub on my own when festivaldeb is doing other stuff. Sometimes i meet friends, more often not. I definitely drink more slowly when alone too.

(I am somewhat younger than most Spoons pensioners mind, being slightly pre-retirement :D .... and I've nearly given up going to actual Wetherspoons as well.)

But one thing I absolutely could not ever do is sit in the pub on my own without something to read! :confused:
 
I think one of the biggest problems is that 4 decades of Thatcher's Britain have left people operating in such a "selfish" paradigm that the rules are viewed as being about self- protection - which people are willing to take a risk on - rather the protection of others.
 
The39thStep said:
No I’m drinking tea watching the football . Can you explain what you meant in your response to the person who went to the pub if I’ve got the wrong end of the stick ?
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The poster concerned, boasted about ordering three pints with a burger, clearly that's not in the sprit of the law, that is not normal behaviour, they were acting to get around the law and stay in the pub longer. They mentioned spoons were serving drinks after people had eaten, and seemed happy about that, despite it clearly being against the law.

No doubt because in their head the risk is no greater in a pub for a couple of hours, with people talking and not wearing masks, thus spreading far more aerosols, than half an hour in a supermarket where most people will be wearing masks and not chatting away. Then there's the fact that supermarkets tend to have better ventilation than most pubs.

I am sick of people looking for loopholes in the law, and pubs & other businesses breaking the law, sure it's shit, but we are in the middle of a pandemic, so suck it up until we start coming out the other side, which hopefully will be only a few months away now.

Frankly, that spoons serving drinks after meals, and allowing the poster to buy three pints with a burger, should be closed down for a month & issued with a £10k fine.
 
I bet you that the vaccine will be available, for a fee, via the private sector long before the bulk of the "low risk" population get it (around the time if phase 8 or 9).
 
cupid_stunt said:
The poster concerned, boasted about ordering three pints with a burger, clearly that's not in the sprit of the law, that is not normal behaviour, they were acting to get around the law and stay in the pub longer. They mentioned spoons were serving drinks after people had eaten, and seemed happy about that, despite it clearly being against the law.

No doubt because in their head the risk is no greater in a pub for a couple of hours, with people talking and not wearing masks, thus spreading far more aerosols, than half an hour in a supermarket where most people will be wearing masks and not chatting away. Then there's the fact that supermarkets tend to have better ventilation than most pubs.

I am sick of people looking for loopholes in the law, and pubs & other businesses breaking the law, sure it's shit, but we are in the middle of a pandemic, so suck it up until we start coming out the other side, which hopefully will be only a few months away now.

Frankly, that spoons serving drinks after meals, and allowing the poster to buy three pints with a burger, should be closed down for a month & issued with a £10k fine.
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Ta . I understand now you are calling for stricter enforcement. Just to explain , my question about boycotts was based on what I perceived to be the logic of ' despite the government allowing pubs being open in Tier 1/2 areas they arent safe, therefore in the interests of safety communities should boycott pubs in those areas' .
 
chilango said:
I think one of the biggest problems is that 4 decades of Thatcher's Britain have left people operating in such a "selfish" paradigm that the rules are viewed as being about self- protection - which people are willing to take a risk on - rather the protection of others.
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Thats a fair point and may explain how sections of those who call themselves on the left now appear to have so little trust in communities and community solidarity they once championed
 
The39thStep said:
Thats a fair point and may explain how sections of those who call themselves on the left now appear to have so little trust in communities and community solidarity they once championed
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I'd imagine most of us under 50 have little memory of anything else.
 
chilango said:
I bet you that the vaccine will be available, for a fee, via the private sector long before the bulk of the "low risk" population get it (around the time if phase 8 or 9).
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All the more reason to resist any kind of 'covid pass' type systems. They'd just be yet another way for the privileged to extend their already gruesome headstart on the rest of us.
 
Example of local authority guidance for 'substantial meals' note at the end that 'there is no requirement for customers who do not wish to consume alcohol to order a substantial meal'

1606990943138.png

1606990990663.png
 
Nuts to that - I frequently have soup or a jacket spud as my lunch (I don't eat bread rolls or sarnies) and I've a small appetite at the best of times !

And most per-plague visits to the pub, I used to have a soft drink anyway !
 
The idea that you can go to a pub and sit around drinking pop with no requirement to have a substantial meal will just mean that there will be pubs where people go to buy a glass of Coke and filling it up with rum or vodka from their own bottle. So the pub has six people on pop, taking up space for a table where six other people might buy six pints or some bottles of wine and six dinners.
It's not good for the pub and it's just a jolly jape for the sorts of people who like to tell their pals how clever they are and how edgy.
 
It's to allow pubs to function as coffee shops is all. I think it's the right move (if you're going to open at all) - they can kick out people who bring their own whisky (which won't actually be a significant number anyway)
 
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