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Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

Ok, I did say want when really I meant how many will actually do it. Anyone rabidly anti-lockdown is going to do what they want anyway, assuming they have anyone to do it with, but what about everyone else? Are some people who generally support public health measures really thinking that even a two-day family get-together is worth the risk?
Yes. My kids have only seen their cousins once all year, miss them a lot, and we stayed home at half term when we had arranged to meet. Not decided yet but lack of contact with friends (and her favourite cousin) is taking a definite toll on my daughter's mental health (she was back at school for a couple of months but is home again now). We will in part be taking our cues from public health policy though.
 
Just how desperate are people to have Christmas saved, out there in the world? Is that actually what the public wants, overall, or is it just the papers?
I wondered that because I found it difficult to conceive that people were that desperate. But then I made a facetious comment to someone based on the idea that nobody is that bothered really and I got back some serious shock and reproachment.
 
Also my mother is very sad she can't come. She's 78, lives a 400 mile train journey away and every year could be (though hopefully isn't) her last visit. I'm very busy this year and am glad of the peace and quiet but I'd be a horrible person not to acknowledge that it's very sad for her and her grandchildren (not just our two) that love her.
 
Ok, I did say want when really I meant how many will actually do it. Anyone rabidly anti-lockdown is going to do what they want anyway, assuming they have anyone to do it with, but what about everyone else? Are some people who generally support public health measures really thinking that even a two-day family get-together is worth the risk?

Personally I'm undecided. Either go up for longer and wfh there a bit to provide a bit of support for elderly parents. I can travel with fairly minimal contact. And my family this year would split the day into 2 pairs of households one of which is already a bubble. Maybe they'll meet briefly in someone's garden. Or I won't bother at all which I'm ok with re missing the actual day.

But if I do that january will be out because there will be a post christmas surge and regardless of christmas relocating there for a little while to support my parents (and make sure I see them in case they dont survive winter!) is something that's been on my mind.
 
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Yes. My kids have only seen their cousins once all year, miss them a lot, and we stayed home at half term when we had arranged to meet. Not decided yet but lack of contact with friends (and her favourite cousin) is taking a definite toll on my daughter's mental health (she was back at school for a couple of months but is home again now). We will in part be taking our cues from public health policy though.
But you're not going to get any genuine public health policy that says it's ok at this stage of the pandemic. You might get permission, but that's not the same thing.

This is taking its toll on everyone's mental health, though granted some even more severely than others. This year is shit. It's fucking miserable, but that's just how it is right now.

Is it that you think the risk within your own family will be small, or that you think the risk* is worth it? (Sorry if this is a bit unfair in making it all about you; I just don't understand the balance of the scales and want to know what anyone in similar position is thinking.)

*E2a: not just the personal/family risk, but also the risk of overwhelming the NHS, many deaths, long covid played out all across the country. I just can't get my head round it.
 
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Is it that you think the risk within your own family will be small, or that you think the risk is worth it?

Five out of eight of us are in schools or nurseries almost every day (excepting lockdowns) anyway so we don't think we're adding a significant transmission risk, none of us are in high risk groups for serious consequences and several of us have probably had it already (which I know doesn't guarantee immunity).

And there's a difference between accepting hardship as adults and expecting four small children under the age of ten to do the same.
 
Five out of eight of us are in schools or nurseries almost every day (excepting lockdowns) anyway so we don't think we're adding a significant transmission risk, none of us are in high risk groups for serious consequences and several of us have probably had it already (which I know doesn't guarantee immunity).

And there's a difference between accepting hardship as adults and expecting four small children under the age of ten to do the same.
Ok. I can understand that. Still running low on sympathy, though. Small children all around the world have to endure all sorts of hardship and it just seems really whiny and bratty (the adults, not the kids) to say we - our family - can't possibly have one year where we miss Christmas.
 
Ok. I can understand that. Still running low on sympathy, though. Small children all around the world have to endure all sorts of hardship and it just seems really whiny and bratty (the adults, not the kids) to say we - our family - can't possibly have one year where we miss Christmas.
Luckily I haven't said anything of the sort.

It also seems convenient in terms of halting any possible transmission to do it between Christmas and New Year as we won't be going anywhere else for two weeks and it gives a week's buffer either side.
 
It seems to me that whilst there is some prisoner’s dilemma playing out, it is more a case of tragedy of the commons. Everybody rightly identifies that their family is unlikely to make much difference at an individual level and they also rightly identify that they can’t control what everybody else is doing and that society is placing them in harm’s way anyway. So they figure, what the hell.
 
Luckily I haven't said anything of the sort.

It also seems convenient in terms of halting any possible transmission to do it between Christmas and New Year as we won't be going anywhere else for two weeks and it gives a week's buffer either side.
You haven't said it in those specific words. It would be in your actions.

And all around the country, if people are telling themselves the same thing, we will continue to be fucked.
 
As someone who isn't fussed about Christmas normally I'm surprised by how much I'm investing in the idea of at least some contact with my parents - not getting hammered for two weeks and licking my neighbours door handles - but just going to theirs for lunch, kids playing Lego (my Lego, mainly space Lego, from when I was a kid..) with my dad...

It's not a religious thing, it's just something nice that seemed not unreasonable to look forward to after unending months of shit.
 
It's supposed to be Chemistry's family Christmas this year and we've been working on the assumption that we can't - would be travel to wolves on a train and three households totalling 7 people. One nurse, one secondary school teacher, one nursery snotbag. 2 of us have had covid in September.

I would still think cross country on a train is out tbh. But I might think differently if we drove and if they were fine with it.



Really what I want is a firm instruction to stay home and not mix.

My family have been trying to work out how to do Christmas within the rules. I've been saying we should just do it later. But my dad is pretty cautious. The cousins are in their uncles support bubble. It would be my child that misses out except she's 3 so I'm literally just prepping her that there won't be snow.
 
People will do what they're allowed to do, and you can't really blame them for doing it tbh. If we continue to be fucked because of it, then the government who relaxed the measures will be responsible, not the people who - understandably - take the relaxing of measures to be the green light.
"I was only following instructions."
 
People will do what they're allowed to do, and you can't really blame them for doing it tbh. If we continue to be fucked because of it, then the government who relaxed the measures will be responsible, not the people who - understandably - take the relaxing of measures to be the green light.
Yes, tragedy of the commons is precisely why you need to issue clear and consistent rules preventing the behaviour that will aggregate to cause a problem.
 
All of the reasons people are saying about Christmas is stuff that applies to other cultural and religious events though. Nobody has been able to do anything normally this year. I find the whole debate its causing nauseating and it's just going to cause more resentment when people see how readily the rules are relaxed when they've had to do everything over zoom or not at all. If you're observant you won't be using technology at all on some of these festivals, not much scope for that in 2020. And what about new years? People are going to be saying 'ah we need a party we havent had one all year' with exactly the same arguments applying.

The people who are screeching about it in the Sun, Mail etc. seem to be the same ones going 'Muslims spreading the virus' so yeah. work that one out.

To be honest I'm dreading it, my sister and her husband thinking they're immune because they just had it, my grandma (who's 94) expecting things are going to be normal etc. my family will be largely quite happy not to do it but it's going to cause endless shit especially because her husbands family love big christmases.

To be honest I'm usually at work or go away, can't do that this year. Depending on workload I'll treat it as a normal day tbh.

Anyway I do understand that it's important to people tbh. I just find the whole treating of it as some sacrosanct thing when literally every other festival hasn't been able to go ahead as normal (and indeed often been blamed for spreading it), absolutely nauseating.
 
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"I was only following instructions."
I actually agree with you and others who don’t agree we should take the risk of having a ‘normal’ Christmas but maybe back off a bit? People are struggling, worried about family members and missing human contact. So I can understand why people would be finding this hard.

FWIW, I don’t have family I can spend Christmas with, all the things about Christmas that I like and that make it bearable for me won’t be happening anyway. I understand why but it’s shit and lonely and it’s important to recognise that without attacking people. You’re not really going to win anyone over that way.
 
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32464-8/fulltext
For Christians across the world, Christmas is a time for families and friends to come together and revel in their importance to one another. Similarly, for Hindus, Jains, Sikhs, and some Buddhists, Diwali represents a celebration of the relationships between family and friends. The importance of each celebration for their respective cultural groups cannot be overstated. The connotation of family in both Christmas and Diwali is particularly of note given research has consistently shown the significance of family and friends for the mental health and wellbeing of university students during the COVID-19 pandemic.
1
The UK Government's recent announcement of new national restrictions mentions that university students “should only return home at the end of term for Christmas”.
2
Diwali occurs before Christmas and, more importantly, during term time. In effect, the UK Government has just forbidden a large proportion of minority ethnic university students from returning home in order for Christmas not to be affected. This seems to have been done without much thought about the impact this would have on an already marginalised community. The worst thing about this is that it was entirely avoidable. The government's Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies advised a 2-week circuit break in early October, 2020, and warned of the impact on minority ethnic communities if this advice was ignored.
3
Their advice, of course, went unheeded.


I thought this was a good piece . Makes the point that people have been forbidden from going home from uni for Diwali and other festivals in order for Christmas not to be affected.

Anyway I've got nothing against people wanting to celebrate Christmas but the way it's being treated by the government is sick tbh, and having a few 'days of freedom' is just gonna make the next lockdown even more interminable. In terms of encouraging following the rules the rest of the time it makes no sense to say this is a deadly virus and you have to stay at home etc except on Christmas where it takes a day off and you can have 20 people to your house.

I'm not angry with people wanting to do it, I'm angry with the government treating this as a priority above everything / everyone else.
 
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I actually agree with you and others who don’t agree we should take the risk of having a ‘normal’ Christmas but maybe back off a bit? People are struggling, worried about family members and missing human contact. So I can understand why people would be finding this hard.

FWIW, I don’t have family I can spend Christmas with, all the things about Christmas that I like and that make it bearable for me won’t be happening anyway. I understand why but it’s shit and lonely and it’s important to recognise that without attacking people. You’re not really going to win anyone over that way.
It's really unusual for me not to be empathetic and sympathetic. I'm going to allow myself some expression of frustration via comments* on the internet about something with serious consequences. Not really expecting to win anyone over.

* Bar the one I apologised for.
 
it’ll make it harder for people that had already decided to remain in their current households/bubbles for Christmas when their family puts pressure on them by saying stuff like “but it’s ok for us all to spend Christmas together, it’s not breaking any rules”
Yes because my parents will (if they make it back to the uk) and it's going to feel really hard to say no. :(
 
I personally don't give a fuck about Christmas.

...but I think it's really hard to try and expect people to take individual personal responsibility for our collective safety in our social lives when we are (in the main) given no fucking choice or control over our collective safety when being sent out to work.
 
Yes, tragedy of the commons is precisely why you need to issue clear and consistent rules preventing the behaviour that will aggregate to cause a problem.
Just a reminder to everyone that the 'tragedy of the commons' is an ideological phrase made popular by someone who knew nothing about the commons, and that despite Hardin's paper on it being debunked by people who actually knew stuff, it is the most widely cited paper in history because it is such a convenient prop to the ideology that passes for 'economics' in most institutions of learning and government. Getting the phrase into general circulation is one of the most successful propaganda coups of neo-liberalism.
 
I'm angry with the government treating this as a priority above everything / everyone else

I really don't think this is anything to do with the religious angle. It's about shops being able to sell their tat and pubs being able to be open for drinking sessions. I really don't think Johnson gives a flying fuck if little Timmy gets to see Grandma but he really cares that Grandma will be able to buy him some lego or some nintendo games and that Timmys Dad can go and spunk £100 down the boozer on xmas eve.
 
I really don't think this is anything to do with the religious angle. It's about shops being able to sell their tat and pubs being able to be open for drinking sessions. I really don't think Johnson gives a flying fuck if little Timmy gets to see Grandma but he really cares that Grandma will be able to buy him some lego or some nintendo games and that Timmys Dad can go and spunk £100 down the boozer on xmas eve.
Of course not, there is a whole capitalist industry around Christmas that doesn't exist for other stuff really , or not to the same extent. But a lot of it is cultural and to appeal to Tory newspapers and voters.
 
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