Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion
- Thread starter Sasaferrato
- Start date
Supine
Newt Member
Fair play to littlebabyjesus because the care home infections from the nhs seems to be factual and avoidable. I’ve seen a lot of anti nhs stuff recently, not just on u75, that is based on nothing but preconceptions. It’s been pissing me off tbh.
Deaths would have been lower if lockdown had been sooner but that’s down to the gov and not the nhs.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Yes, needs to be focused on management failings I think.
I thought transferring patients from hospitals to care homes was government directed, too.
elbows
Well-Known Member
In many areas I am sure it is not easy to draw a distinct line between the NHS and the government department. The NHS and those that work in it are subject to the whims of government like so many others are. A theme I grew up listening to since my parents were teachers and the same sort of thing applied to education too, diktats from on high that hadnt been properly consulted on with people who understood the job and the ramifications of specific changes.
This is also part o the reason why things get messy when it comes to 'criticisms of the NHS'. 'The NHS' is many different things, from an ideal to the people that work in it to the layers of ineffective crap, and so many services that people need and rely on. Its completely understandable that people get defensive about some of this stuff because an attack on one aspect could be seen as an attack on other, more dearly held aspects, or as part of an agenda to shit on the ideal of a public health service that is free at the point of use.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I should also say that even some of the individuals operational failings within the NHS during the pandemic were caused by the poor sense of the timing of the pandemic, and that wasnt their fault, that was the fault of government and the governments scientific & medical advisors, and some of the modelling work and data used. The failure to grasp quickly enough the stage of epidemic already reached fed into other failures of individuals to really get ahead of the epidemic curve with their response and where their heads were at. So there were stories of individual departments within hospitals that were working in earnest to plan and get ready, but were not quite in sync with the fact the disease was already with them. Small 'on the front lines' management teams working for days to plan, only to have members of that very team quickly struck down with presumed COVID-19 infections, before they expected it. In most cases this was not their fault, they did not have the luxury of sitting around on their arses for endless hours every day absorbing many details of the unfolding pandemic in February like I did. They were reliant on others to give them a sense of what stage of things, what stage of risk we were at, and they were let down in this regard for some crucial weeks.
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What anti NHS stuff on here?
elbows
Well-Known Member
So far I have gotten away with my decision to have a holiday from my unease in June and to advise others to attempt to do the same whenever the opportunity arises in this pandemic. With the idea partly being about the possibility of things getting worse again later in the year, and trying to take the opportunities to recharge the mental batteries in the meantime. It might have been easier for me because my 'instincts' were pointing in two competing directions about the possibility and imminency of any fresh woe, so I decided to let the data guide me as to which expectation of the future to settle on in my mind. So far the data continues to show that I can carry on in this undecided recharging mode, for how long that will remain the case is the big question.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I'll try to keep this brief cos I don't want (won't be having) an argument over this.
I am not in any sense anti-NHS. I firmly believe in a system of comprehensive health care free for all at the point of delivery, paid for by a general, progressive taxation system. It's precisely because that is something I firmly believe in that the state of some of the NHS is so fucking painful to see.
So there has been massive underinvestment (cuts, really) for the last decade in particular, but also dating back further than that. And various doctrines from private enterprise have been brought in. For instance, the idea that an empty bed is a wasted resource or the introduction of 'just in time' ordering for essential equipment such as ppe rather than stockpiling. Two ideas that had disastrous effects this year, contributing to the spread of the virus in the panicked 'clearing out' phase of the pandemic in the early weeks. That cost lives. We shouldn't skirt around that. It's not like this is the first NHS-related hospital infection spread scare. What lessons were learned from MRSA, and what lessons not learned?
On a wider note, there are bits of the NHS that have been failing for years. Eg mental health services, and various services for the elderly and the chronically ill. Far too many people fall through the cracks, with different departments failing to coordinate to provide care - don't be a mentally ill old person, for instance, you'll be at the back of a very slow-moving queue, covid times or not. We deserve better.
This isn't about finding people to blame so much as simply finding out what went wrong and how to stop it from happening again. We owe that to the relatives of the dead.
I am not in any sense anti-NHS. I firmly believe in a system of comprehensive health care free for all at the point of delivery, paid for by a general, progressive taxation system. It's precisely because that is something I firmly believe in that the state of some of the NHS is so fucking painful to see.
So there has been massive underinvestment (cuts, really) for the last decade in particular, but also dating back further than that. And various doctrines from private enterprise have been brought in. For instance, the idea that an empty bed is a wasted resource or the introduction of 'just in time' ordering for essential equipment such as ppe rather than stockpiling. Two ideas that had disastrous effects this year, contributing to the spread of the virus in the panicked 'clearing out' phase of the pandemic in the early weeks. That cost lives. We shouldn't skirt around that. It's not like this is the first NHS-related hospital infection spread scare. What lessons were learned from MRSA, and what lessons not learned?
On a wider note, there are bits of the NHS that have been failing for years. Eg mental health services, and various services for the elderly and the chronically ill. Far too many people fall through the cracks, with different departments failing to coordinate to provide care - don't be a mentally ill old person, for instance, you'll be at the back of a very slow-moving queue, covid times or not. We deserve better.
This isn't about finding people to blame so much as simply finding out what went wrong and how to stop it from happening again. We owe that to the relatives of the dead.
Great post.
Bolded bit especially : I expect that here on Urban, the above is the big majority's take on the NHS, too
blameless77
Well-Known Member
Except the workforce of the one on Anglesey is very much not ‘immigrants’ - seems rather an assumption to make with no data?
elbows
Well-Known Member
Nobody should expect me to soften my criticism of the NHS hospital trust layers that issue statements to the public that are as opaque as the following. Yes, its the continuation of 'what is going on with the George Eliot hospital in Nuneaton'....
www.coventrytelegraph.net
Riddle me this, riddle me that, how about putting some energy into admitting and describing the actual picture instead of forcing me to read between the lines of all this defensive shite!
Boss insists hospital remains open despite Covid-19 rise
An investigation has been launched into 'significant and consistent' numbers of coronavirus cases
Riddle me this, riddle me that, how about putting some energy into admitting and describing the actual picture instead of forcing me to read between the lines of all this defensive shite!
elbows
Well-Known Member
Coronavirus: New Covid-19 tracing tool appears on smartphones
The new "exposure notification" tool is part of an update to iPhone and Android operating systems.
www.bbc.co.uk
Its also being discussed on the thread about tracking apps.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
This is the most disastrous handling of any serious challenge to a government for 100 years.
- Sir David King, the former government chief scientific adviser and chairman of the independent Sage group
www.theguardian.com
- Sir David King, the former government chief scientific adviser and chairman of the independent Sage group
Nearly 1,500 deaths in one day: UK ministers accused of downplaying Covid-19 peak
Official toll passed a thousand on 22 consecutive days – far more than daily briefings said
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
We are still weeks behind. The number of hospital cases went up yesterday to 490 from 458 a week earlier but they did not do the comparison for this figure unlike all the others. 173 deaths yesterday where the EU27 had 53 combined. Still a shitshow.There won't be a second wave unless the first one finishes.
Not sure where you are getting this combined EU27 figure from, reported yesterday for the day before, i.e. the day you are posting about, Italy reported 47 & Belgium 12 deaths, so just those two countries at 59 exceeds the 53 you mentioned, without checking on the other 25 countries, I suspect the source is unreliable.
Is it this Jon Jones twitter account, quoted in your post just above?
Because he's claiming a combined EU27 figure of 82 reported today, and many EU countries haven't yet been updated on worldometers, but just adding up 4 that have, their total of 84 exceeds his claimed figure.
(Italy 49, Spain 7, Poland 12 & Romanian 16)
Whilst the UK numbers are still fairly high, 173 reported yesterday is down from 202 the previous Friday, and the 128 reported today is down from 181 last Saturday, which is positive.
MrSki
Who am I to say you're wrong
No he is quoting the combined nations of the flags shown. He does not mention the EU27 in the post.
I am on the Post Covid FB, they are presenting with some horrendous symptoms(similar to M.E symptoms) and in huge numbers they are being gaslighted by medics the way people with M.E have for thirty years, and they are getting very very angry and will respond in a much more robust way than PWME could ever do at onset.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
Fair enough, so what was the source for the 'EU27 had 53 combined' you quoted yesterday?
MrSki
Who am I to say you're wrong
Sorry I can't remember. I will check with worldometer in future.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Not sure why you're in a Post Covid FB group if you haven't had it? Dragging people who are in a vulnerable place while recovering from CV into the messy world of ME cause denial will not help them at all. And yes, I know plenty of people with (or who have had) ME (a few close friends who lost years to it, sometimes bed-bound) and all those that have recovered have done so through psychological therapy and the exercise regime prescribed by the NHS, and now say they were wrong and the medics were right. Maybe take this to a specific ME thread if you keep wanting to bring ME up in relation to CV.
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This is the most disastrous handling of any serious challenge to a government for 100 years.
- Sir David King, the former government chief scientific adviser and chairman of the independent Sage group
Nearly 1,500 deaths in one day: UK ministers accused of downplaying Covid-19 peak
Official toll passed a thousand on 22 consecutive days – far more than daily briefings said
It's so depressing, and nothing will happen to this Govt, they will say King is partisan, etc
Just been Peak District, Hathersage was packed more than ever i have seen it, middle classs/students, mainly, all in cars, buses were empty, pubs open with loads outside, very little S/D crowds on pavements, toilets open but already filthy, worrying.
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I was waiting for your gaslighting, they didn't have M.E if it was psychological treatment that helped, (maybe it would help for for cancer then in that case), and certainly not graded exercise.
GP thinks I have had it after video call.
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LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Diagnosed with ME/CFS, had the recommended treatment, got better. You then say they didn't have ME/CFS?! Didn't know you were the gate keeper of remote ME diagnosis for people you've never met. But maybe that allows you to discount theories you don't like about some of the causes of it.
I think we have to agree to disgree and move on, but I think you continually bringing ME into discussions about CV is irresponsible.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Problem of cherry-picking - not hugely valuable, especially as many smaller countries don't announce deaths daily.
UK is on its way down still, slowly but steadily. One of the things that characterise the UK's experience is that every region has been badly affected (South West less so, but not exactly scot-free). That's different from other big European countries - in Italy, for instance, the vast majority of deaths were in the north; the south was far less affected. By contrast, the first big outbreak here was in London, but Wales has been badly affected, so has the North East, so has Scotland, so has the North West, so has the Midlands. It's been all over, but with local peaks at slightly different times.
It is better to think about it as a series of discrete events. This point was made by alternative sage modeller Karl Friston. The more of these discrete events you lump together under one measuring unit, the more spread-out your resultant epidemic curve will be. Also, sharper up, sharper down is the pattern. If you isolate London as a measuring unit, it has been very sharply up and down - 200 deaths in hospital per day at peak, around 5 a day for the last week or so.
Drilling down deeper reveals smaller contributory units that are more or less independent of one another. But it also reveals a probable explanation for the UK's seemingly slow recovery - the failure to save even one of its regions from a bad outbreak.
The London graph looks like this (just hospital, by date of occurrence not announcement). Compared to a unit of similar size - Belgium (date of announcement here, but with 7-day average on it - plus this is all places of death: add about a third to the London figures to get an equivalent as 74% of London deaths have been hospital thus far) - it looks really very similar in both size and shape.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
I saw some drinkers in a local pub garden this afternoon - didn't know this was allowed yet? The pub's doors were closed, and the 'garden' is just some tables on some flagstones that go right onto the street, so I guess they could have just brought their own drinks. Plastic pint glasses though.
see my post above, travelling around plenty of pubs, semi open, people drinking outside.
Loads of pubs here are doing takeaway pints. Are they doing that and using the pub's tables too?
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
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