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Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

The way you write doesn't come across as thinking aloud, whether that's intentional or not.


I said “I think (I worry) that...”

I can’t see that anything I said outside that was controversial. The virus does have an intermittent fluctuating character. Other coronaviruses also have this property. Everything else I said is speculative arising from that. Nothing I said suggestd we shouldn’t continue being careful. Several sensible people have liked that post, so it’s not as if it’s wildly out from what other side think.

This place is so weird sometimes.
My responses probably say more about my own ability to cope with this phase than anything else. I'm having trouble adjusting to the amount of negativity and gloom that seems to be doing the rounds. I'm going to pick at the details of that from time to time, and there were things in your post which got me going on that angle.

I wont do this every single time someone says something I disagree with. But even when I resist nine out of ten opportunities to use someone elses thoughts in order to state my own, some will slip through. Hopefully not often enough that people are put off from sharing their genuine concerns for the future, but of course I cannot be sure of that, continual criticism can have a chilling effect on broader participation, I'm concious of that but not always able to stop myself contributing to the phenomenon.


Well your response and what some others said to support you successfully made me retreat sharpish. It is a genuine concern, and several other posters seem to agree with me. But since it was a speculative opinion rather than an argument based in fact (I'm not sure why teuchter seems to think I presented it as fact rather than opinion), I've got nowhere else to go. I'm not going to try to defend opinion, am I.. So I'm backing out.
 
I said “I think (I worry) that...”

I can’t see that anything I said outside that was controversial. The virus does have an intermittent fluctuating character. Other coronaviruses also have this property. Everything else I said is speculative arising from that. Nothing I said suggestd we shouldn’t continue being careful. Several sensible people have liked that post, so it’s not as if it’s wildly out from what other side think.

This place is so weird sometimes.



Well your response and what some others said to support you successfully made me retreat sharpish. It is a genuine concern, and several other posters seem to agree with me. But since it was a speculative opinion rather than an argument based in fact (I'm not sure why teuchter seems to think I presented it as fact rather than opinion), I've got nowhere else to go. I'm not going to try to defend opinion, am I.. So I'm backing out.
Fair enough - there is just something about talking about its "inherently fluctuating character" (by which I think you mean symptoms at an individual level) and then saying that it therefore will follow similarly unpredictable behaviour at an epidemic level that implies some sort of authority on the matter (because there doesn't seem an obvious link) and when I read it, my pseudoscience bells rang.
 
Plus if we only look at deaths with no detail about those deaths, we wont be able to tell the difference between community cases going up again, and outbreaks leading to death that are actually outbreaks and ongoing transmission within particular hospitals etc, rather than broader community spread.

This is what I was saying, deaths don't really tell us much about the COVID infection trend as there is a delay between getting sick and losing the battle and dying. Sometimes measured in weeks. All those graphs are encouraging. How many people are presenting to hospitals and tested positive? Many people recover but those people were potentially infecting others before they ended up in the hospital and those numbers will tell us it's relatively safe or not.

Proper track and trace with infections numbers at manageable levels means we can be as safe as possible without other forms of treatments.

If they get that running properly rather than bungle it, how hard can that be I wonder.....
 

Anyone had one of these texts yet? Cancer, asthma and transplant patients removed by text from vulnerable list. No more access to food parcels for them either.
I think the wording of this article is a little misleading - it gives the impression that all cancer, asthma and transplant patients have been delisted, when it's just some patients, as decided by their consultants.
 
I would be quite happy if some other people picked various hospital trusts to graph. For example, it has been said that things have not been going well in Barrow in Furness. I havent even got as far as figuring out which hospital trust(s) serve that area, but if someone did then I would like to see if anything shows up in those hospital stats.
It's University Hospitals of Morcambe Bay trust.

1590601157892.png
 
I think the wording of this article is a little misleading - it gives the impression that all cancer, asthma and transplant patients have been delisted, when it's just some patients, as decided by their consultants.

Yeah, I wouldn't argue with that.
 
According to Hancock when introducing his track and trace shortly to be with us, if we are contacted by track and tracers to tell us that we need to isolate for 14 days it is our civic duty to isolate ourselves and seek a test.

If we are still well, surely a test would be wasted? what would be the point of the test? and if we are or become seriously ill, I doubt getting a test is going to motivate us to get out of our sick beds, assuming we could get one posted to us as I doubt we will be permitted to go to a drive through.

Oh, and if civic duty isn't enough to motivate compliance, measures will be taken.

Cummings are you reading this, is it perfectly clear?
 
Fair enough - there is just something about talking about its "inherently fluctuating character" (by which I think you mean symptoms at an individual level) and then saying that it therefore will follow similarly unpredictable behaviour at an epidemic level that implies some sort of authority on the matter (because there doesn't seem an obvious link) and when I read it, my pseudoscience bells rang.


I can’t find it now because of the enormous deluge of information about this current coronavirus. I wish I’d bookmarked it but I found it so easily that I didn’t think it would be hard to find again.

You’ll just have to take my word for it, based on my posting history, that I have seen and read a paper that talks about some coronaviruses having a fluctuating character.

Although it’s only anecdotal, plenty of people, on here and elsewhere, know that thing of feeling better, then going back to work, and then coming down with a “second cold”. Given this fluctuating nature (which could be a smart way to outwit the immune system doing everything it can to seperate the host out from the herd, thus limiting transmission) it’s not crazy to suggest that it’s not to a second cold, it’s the same cold (of course it could be a second cold taking advantage of the lowered immune system.... except that the immune system is fired up from fighting the first...or mybe it could be because the person is tired and run down.... or any number of other things but it could be the same cold recurring, that’s not bonkers).

I’ve seen people on here and elsewhere talk about their own Covid experience fluctuating. Plenty of viral infections present with intermittent fever. It’s not a bizarre outlandish concept. I’m following through from this understanding, and saying “what if....”. That’s how scientific endeavour works: starting from a known point and working outwards. (Of course I’m not saying this is a science idea. Disclaimer forever etc.)

I brought it up on here becasue while I really hope I’m wrong. I wanted to flag this up as a possible thing to be thinking about as we head into what may be a second wave, and come out of that in time for the cold and flu season.

I’ll keep trying to find that paper about how some coronaviruses have a fluctuating character.


ETA

This is not me trying to defend or argue my opinion, just trying to clarify it. So mostly just repeating it with more words.
 
According to Hancock when introducing his track and trace shortly to be with us, if we are contacted by track and tracers to tell us that we need to isolate for 14 days it is our civic duty to isolate ourselves and seek a test.

If we are still well, surely a test would be wasted? what would be the point of the test? and if we are or become seriously ill, I doubt getting a test is going to motivate us to get out of our sick beds, assuming we could get one posted to us as I doubt we will be permitted to go to a drive through.

Oh, and if civic duty isn't enough to motivate compliance, measures will be taken.

Cummings are you reading this, is it perfectly clear?
You can have it and be symptom free, that has been very clearly established.
We’re not going to be able to get back to any sense of normality until this stuff is followed and works.
I would have got a test if that was possible when I had symptoms. Surely people will want to know if they have it.
 
What this has all exposed, people presenting with Corona type viruses, etc, when they are usually have other types of bugs, heavy colds, etc, is the huge and exponential rise in the latter: bugs , viruses, colds, etc,most that won't have come to the attention of medics, researchers, stats, etc. My GP has finally admitted it, of course he can't deny it, his surgery has been deluged by calls about such for months now.
 
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You can have it and be symptom free, that has been very clearly established.
That is indeed true, but you can also have been in contact with someone with it and not yet have enough viral load to be picked up by a throat swab.

We’re not going to be able to get back to any sense of normality until this stuff is followed and works.
I would have got a test if that was possible when I had symptoms. Surely people will want to know if they have it.
I think if I was ill, I would mainly want to get better. Not saying a test might not be interesting.
 
That is indeed true, but you can also have been in contact with someone with it and not yet have enough viral load to be picked up by a throat swab.


I think if I was ill, I would mainly want to get better. Not saying a test might not be interesting.
Obviously you could have been in contact but not catch it but if you get tested and it’s negative you don’t need to self isolate. I didn’t see the whole briefing so I didn’t hear if there’s advice on how long to wait for a test after exposure.

I don’t think anyone is pretending this is a perfect system but it’s what we have and it could be a way to ease things more.
 
Obviously you could have been in contact but not catch it but if you get tested and it’s negative you don’t need to self isolate. I didn’t see the whole briefing so I didn’t hear if there’s advice on how long to wait for a test after exposure.
It wasn't specified. Hopefully the trackers & tracers will have more time to explain the details.

I don’t think anyone is pretending this is a perfect system but it’s what we have and it could be a way to ease things more.
 
I think if I was ill, I would mainly want to get better. Not saying a test might not be interesting.

Having the test or not is not going to influence that though. You can have the test and still concentrate on getting better. Early diagnosis would be useful though if you start to deteriorate. Beyond some sort of fear of the test I really don't see what the issue is here.
 
This is what I was saying, deaths don't really tell us much about the COVID infection trend as there is a delay between getting sick and losing the battle and dying. Sometimes measured in weeks. All those graphs are encouraging. How many people are presenting to hospitals and tested positive? Many people recover but those people were potentially infecting others before they ended up in the hospital and those numbers will tell us it's relatively safe or not.

Proper track and trace with infections numbers at manageable levels means we can be as safe as possible without other forms of treatments.

If they get that running properly rather than bungle it, how hard can that be I wonder.....
All info has a time lag associated with it. Latest idea is that measuring viral rates in sewage is the best lead indicator. Serious suggestion - should we be monitoring the sewage across the country and coordinating lockdown easing measures with that? It might be what everywhere should be doing.

You're right about track and trace of course. That's been obvious for months tbf. But by the indicators that we do have, including (in reverse order of time lag, but probably in the right order for reliability) deaths, hospitalisation rates, and new cases, despite everything, things are improving in most of the country, with worrying exceptions such as Wales. Not as much as we might have hoped when comparing the UK with other countries, but in parts of the country, such as London, they've improved dramatically in the last few weeks.

tbh I take the opposite position to you wrt worries about lockdown easing. I see it all going rather well. The indicators across Europe where this is in progress are basically all good. In some places like Switzerland they're better than good. And the early indicators in London are pretty damn good, I would say, given that outdoor social distancing has rather collapsed here in the last couple of weeks.

This particular wave may be just about washed over us now in Europe at least. What happens come the next one, later this year or next year, is the real test for me. Russian flu of 1880-84, which may well have been a coronavirus, washed over the UK in three separate waves. The second was the worst. However, they didn't even know it was a virus then - they didn't know viruses existed - and there was dispute over whether germ theory was right or it was caused by bad 'miasma'. We do know all these things, so we should at least be able to stamp on the next wave right at the start, if there is one. Even without effective treatment or vaccine, to allow this kind of level of infection again would be incompetence too far even for Boris the Clown.
 
He's on one of the SAGE sub-groups, specifically the Scientific Pandemic Influenza Group on Behaviours which seems to be a real nest of renegades. Gangs all there Stott, Drury, Reicher. Plus 4 who cannot be named.

Michie? She was a friend/comrade of my mum and I've seen her raising her head and objecting to the differences between the SAGE advice and what was actually followed from really early on.
 
Michie? She was a friend/comrade of my mum and I've seen her raising her head and objecting to the differences between the SAGE advice and what was actually followed from really early on.
I was on about Clifford Stott. I did wonder if there was some relation between the two though. The three I mentioned form a tight little group that has not gone without notice or comment amongst their erstwhile lefty associates, for other possibly less useful work primarily...
 
I'm sure this is going to be boring and repetitive (the thread is so long tha I can't follow it anymore) but there's been this message given for a few days now -

Due to technical difficulties with pillar 2 data collection, we cannot provide people tested figures today.

Is there any other way of knowing what the actual number of people tested is and how the consistent failure to provide those is supposed to work alongside the new track and trace system?
 
I'm sure this is going to be boring and repetitive (the thread is so long tha I can't follow it anymore) but there's been this message given for a few days now -

Due to technical difficulties with pillar 2 data collection, we cannot provide people tested figures today.

Is there any other way of knowing what the actual number of people tested is and how the consistent failure to provide those is supposed to work alongside the new track and trace system?
I've been wondering that. The Pillar 1 stuff seems worthwhile to follow, and has the advantage that it can be compared to earlier figures cos until recently there basically was only a Pillar 1. I've been kind of ignoring Pillar 2. I'm not sure how valuable or reliable it is.

Pillar 2 is private contractors. They only really seem able to control or make sense out of the data for tests the NHS is doing itself. (Although the number of people tested managed to outdo the number of tests done today on Pillar 1, which is quite a feat.)

Fuck knows what kind of mess they've made in privatising the Pillar 2 stuff. As for Pillar 4, there appears to be nothing of any value at all. And about Pillar 3, the less said the better... You mustn't talk about Pillar 3. Shhhh.
 
Got a letter from the NHS/Ipsos Mori today asking me if I wanted to take part in a random swab test via home delivery kit. I hate to be that guy who barges into threads without reading the previous twenty pages, but is this a thing now? I'm in favour if so, I realise they need to know what percentage of the population have been infected/are asymptomatic etc, but I was surprised to see the letter as I haven't been near a doctor/dentist/hospital in fifteen years :cool:

Did the test last night (yuck) and it was collected this morning by a pissed off looking yodel driver who held out a sealable plastic bag into which I dropped the sealed vial inside a sealed bag inside a sealed box. Of course this happened in full view of the neighbours and our postman, all of whom no doubt now presume I have the plague :rolleyes: Already warned work I'll be having my two weeks off on full pay if it comes back positive :D
 
I hate to say it, but today's top story is only in the Spectator. Norway is saying the lockdown wasn't necessary. The rest of the media seems to be pretending they don't know. Too busy with Cummings, or maybe studying this big Norwegian document https://www.fhi.no/contentassets/c9...bd0/notat-om-risiko-og-respons-2020-05-05.pdf which the story below was based on Norway health chief: lockdown was not needed to tame Covid | The Spectator

Norway is assembling a picture of what happened before lockdown and its latest discovery is pretty significant. It is using observed data – hospital figures, infection numbers and so on – to construct a picture of what was happening in March. At the time, no one really knew. It was feared that virus was rampant with each person infecting two or three others – and only lockdown could get this exponential growth rate (the so-called R number) down to a safe level of 1. This was the hypothesis advanced in various graphs by Imperial College London for Britain, Norway and several European countries.

But the Norwegian public health authority has published a report with a striking conclusion: the virus was never spreading as fast as had been feared and was already on the way out when lockdown was ordered. ‘It looks as if the effective reproduction rate had already dropped to around 1.1 when the most comprehensive measures were implemented on 12 March, and that there would not be much to push it down below 1… We have seen in retrospect that the infection was on its way down.’ Here’s the graph, with the R-number on the right-hand scale:

Screenshot_2020-05-27_at_12.05.30.png



This raises an awkward question: was lockdown necessary? What did it achieve that could not have been achieved by voluntary social distancing? Camilla Stoltenberg, director of Norway’s public health agency, has given an interview where she is candid about the implications of this discovery. ‘Our assessment now, and I find that there is a broad consensus in relation to the reopening, was that one could probably achieve the same effect – and avoid part of the unfortunate repercussions – by not closing. But, instead, staying open with precautions to stop the spread.’ This is important to admit, she says, because if the infection levels rise again – or a second wave hits in the winter – you need to be brutally honest about whether lockdown proved effective.

Norway’s statistics agency was also the first in the world to calculate the permanent damage inflicted by school closures: every week of classroom education denied to students, it found, stymies life chances and permanently lowers earnings potential. So a country should only enforce this draconian measure if it is sure that the academic foundation for lockdown was sound. And in Stoltenberg’s opinion, ‘the academic foundation was not good enough’ for lockdown this time.

The leading article in the new Spectator, out tomorrow, argues that Brits deserve the same candour. There is a wealth of UK data to draw from: 999 calls, infections, hospital data, weekly figures on respiratory infections and some 37,000 Covid deaths. And from this it’s not hard for the UK government to do what the Norwegian and Swedish authorities have done: produce an estimate of the R number dating back to February or March. And use observed data – rather than assumptions and models – to measure the lockdown effect. The results of such a study might make for uncomfortable reading for a government still asking police to enforce lockdown. But these things have a habit of becoming public eventually.

There might be a strong story to tell. The UK data, when assembled, might well show that hundreds of thousands would have died without lockdown – and that, while brutal, it was vital. But if the data points to something different, as it has in Norway, then this is a discussion worth having. Our leading article concludes with this point:

“It is time to restore liberty and move to a voluntary system: to ask for continued caution but ask people to use common sense. The country is ready to be trusted. The question is whether the Prime Minister feels ready to trust us.
 
I will not be reading the Spectator article. I have translated the Norwegian report. It says things like:

This wave of the covid-19 epidemic in Norway is over the top and returning [elbows note - presumed dodgy translation and that actually means past the peak and declining]. That's because of one combination of measures, cf. Chapter 7, and it is not possible to point out which measures have been the most important and which would have been sufficient to get the epidemic under control. It looks as if the effective reproduction rate had already dropped to around 1.1 by then the most comprehensive measures were implemented on March 12, and that didn't take much to push it down below 1.0.
From this it follows that we also do not know what measures must be maintained to comply the epidemic at a level where the capacity of the health service is not exceeded and where the negative ones the ringing effects do not get too great. When some measures are completed, it can be difficult to determine whether a possible spread of infection is due to this alone or whether it may be due that people and businesses end their self-imposed restrictions or comply with hygiene-the advice worse.

The coming years are still at risk of being exposed to new waves of a virus with a reproduction figures of around 3.0. We now know that such waves can be knocked down, and it is important that new ones
waves are not allowed to become so high that the capacity of the health service is overloaded.

Overall, the measures have had a very good effect on the epidemic, but so far it has not been it is possible to estimate the effect of the individual measures separately.

In a population almost without immunity, R will be around 3 and quickly produce a dramatic epidemic if no action is taken and no one changes behavior. It has never been a topical one scenario. As it may take several years before vaccination becomes possible or very effective drug becomes available, we must try to keep the epidemic under control without action great burden of action. At present, we are receiving little relief from immunity in the population. Since the effect of the individual measure is unknown and the effect is delayed, it becomes difficult to find the level of measures that keep the burden of disease low enough for health care and At the same time, the burden of action is low enough for society, businesses and individuals.

Hopefully we can do without the extensive contact reducing measures (measures 5). Then hygiene measures (measure 1), testing and isolation of infected (measure 2) must be followed by infection detection and the quarantine of their close contacts (measure 3) are well implemented. This are the measures recommended since phases 1 and 2 of the epidemic. Mild contact reducing measures, such as keeping distance and increased use of physical dividers (glass walls, etc.) may also work.
We do not know if this will succeed. This uncertainty means that hospitals must be prepared for a large load in case the spread should be greater than desired. The careful monitoring of the situation is required so that an unfortunate development can be detected early.

There is much else in there but I deliberately only chose stuff on that particular topic.

Some of the 'lockdown was unnecessary' talk misses the point as far as I can tell. I dont think it is any surprise that if you do a lot of other things right, at the right time, then there are a whole raft of less extreme measures that should be enough to keep the virus under control. Countries that through much effort, luck and circumstance avoided seeding very large numbers of infections within their communities should be able to avoid having to slam the handbrake on really hard (full lockdown). Lots of these other measures are discussed in the document. If the UK had done more of them more effectively, with better timing, then milder forms of social distancing might have been enough. If we get various things right in the months ahead then we should be able to avoid doing so in future, perhaps with sporadic local exceptions. Our timing needs to improve a lot though, because if things are left too late then there arent many options than slamming brakes on as hard as possible for fear you still wont slow down in time. And under those circumstances I cannot really complain if they overcompensate beyond what was actually needed to stop just in time. If someone tells me that we are 4 weeks away from crashing to our doom but I think we are only 2 weeks away, I'm going to start eyeing the brake pedal myself, and thats what happened in the UK the first time around.

The Norwegian document is not shy of the fact that much is still not known, and countries all over the place will have trouble being able to work out how much each measure contributed to the reduction of R.

Its similar to expecting the models to be perfect, they are only guides and they are based on assumptions. We still arent able to replace all our assumptions with solid facts yet, and there will be much learning to be done in the months ahead.
 
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There are plenty of anti-lockdown loonies and psychopaths at the Spectator - that's the whole point of it these days. I wonder how many Tories will use Norway to gamble on the lockdown-does-more-harm-than-good ticket? They might see it as a way to save Cummings and get a cabinet job. Strange times.
 
I dont think retroactively deciding lockdown was a bad idea really does anything to save Cummings.

Beyond the obvious anti-lockdown nutter stances I'm sure there are also a range of other anti-lockdown stances that would benefit from more detailed descriptions of their actual position. It might be people disagreeing about exactly which measures to relax and when. Or which measures to reach for first in future. A lot of it wont actually be served that well by the term lockdown, given the number of different measures that have actually been employed so far and could be again in future, and the fact we didnt exactly have a completely full lockdown in the first place.
 
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