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Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

Information source request please, my research skills have let me down: I know the ONS is publishing weekly excess and c-19 deaths by age decile across the UK, but I can’t for the life of me find the aggregated totals to date (by the same deciles) - it must be out there! Can someone with better skills than me point me in the right direction please? Thank you.
 
Will depend on how much community transmission has been driven down. We can only hope community transmission hugely reduced. Main risks will still be resumption of more widespread indoor activity (I.e. schools, shops, workplaces) especially with seeming UK aversion to masks compared to other countries. But London figures give some hope. Caveat there is level of short term immunity amongst those regularly using tube/buses up to now which is likely higher in London than elsewhere?



I’ve said this here and elsewhere at some length so forgiven me for repeating myself but,

This virus, like several other coronaviruses, behaves in an inherently intermittent way. I think (I worry) that this drop off is at least in part due to its fluctuating character. We mustn’t congratulate ourselves on the drop off. I think it would happen to some extent anyway, the lockdown has enhanced that effect. If we were smart, we’d stomp on it hard during the dip (other countries are doing this right now).

It’s definitely coming back. And it will recur really hard in places that are complacent when the the numbers go down, like here.
 
Information source request please, my research skills have let me down: I know the ONS is publishing weekly excess and c-19 deaths by age decile across the UK, but I can’t for the life of me find the aggregated totals to date (by the same deciles) - it must be out there! Can someone with better skills than me point me in the right direction please? Thank you.

If you only needed the most basic look at the ONS's COVID-19 deaths by some rather broad age groups, its in their summary article about this weeks data release.

Figure 4 from Deaths registered weekly in England and Wales, provisional - Office for National Statistics

chartimage


If you also want all deaths, rather than only ones with COVID-19 on death certificate, or you want these and COVID-19 deaths broken down into much smaller age groups, you need the full data release for weekly deaths:


Tabs of particular relevance in that spreadsheet are 'Weekly figures 2020", "Covid-19 Weekly registrations", "Covid-19 Weekly Occurrences" and perhaps "UK - Covid-19 - Weekly reg". Some of them will give you the totals, for others you will have to add a column to add them up yourself.

The bit I cannot point you in the right direction of would be the normal number of deaths per week for each of the age groups. So tend to end up counting all deaths, not excess deaths, when looking at these numbers. I mean it is possible to look at the deaths for each age group in the weeks of this year before the pandemic really got going, to see what sort of range those deaths were in before. But this is imprecise and I think for some weeks earlier this year the deaths were actually a bit below the normal rate (probably in part as the flu season was early and affected 2019 more than 2020). We are given overall figures for normal number of deaths per week (5 year average), but these arent by age in the data I tend to find, so for actual excess estimations I just use overall numbers rather than by age.
 
I’ve said this here and elsewhere at some length so forgiven me for repeating myself but,

This virus, like several other coronaviruses, behaves in an inherently intermittent way. I think (I worry) that this drop off is at least in part due to its fluctuating character. We mustn’t congratulate ourselves on the drop off. I think it would happen to some extent anyway, the lockdown has enhanced that effect. If we were smart, we’d stomp on it hard during the dip (other countries are doing this right now).

It’s definitely coming back. And it will recur really hard in places that are complacent when the the numbers go down, like here.

Misleading rubbish.
 
I am lacking time but will try very quickly to explain my poor reaction.

I dislike anything that makes it sound like the ebbs and flows of epidemic waves of viruses are an entirely mysterious thing that is largely beyond our control. Its true that its not a perfectly neat and tidy picture, and science etc often have trouble separating the effects of different factors, and there is some apparent randomness in nature. But we have some good ideas about what a lot of those factors are, and many of them are down to human behaviour.

Population susceptibility to a particular virus and the opportunities the virus has to spread via various human behaviours, states of health and environments we mix in go a long way to explaining a great big chunk of epidemic waves etc, seasonality and cycles of diseases etc. Seasonal factors are probably a mix of several different things, but human behaviour (more time indoors with people) is certainly thought to be a factor in that too.

It is true that by actually responding to this pandemic with massive behavioural changes (lockdown etc) we are robbed of the opportunity to see what the 'natural' curve of the first epidemic wave would have looked like. So it is left up to our own minds the extent to which the lockdown, social distancing and other measures made a difference. But I for one consider it stupid to downplay the role that the massive changes in our behaviour, massive changes to number of interactions with other humans, have in the spread of disease.

I think people that have become gloomy as the lockdown etc measures have eroded are playing into the hands of those who will be peddling anti-lockdown and defeatist messages in future. If people want to believe that all this has been for nothing or has only had a marginal effect, then I dont know what to say really.

Nothing I am saying is supposed to mean I am diminishing the risk of things getting bad again in future, I am not complacent at all. But. thats precisely why I am not so happy with some of the attitudes that seem to be tempting people to adopt them at this stage. I've been using the word defeatist as shorthand for this recently but I dont know as I have really found the best word yet. But something is wrong if we cannot maintain perspective on what has happened and what will be required of us in future. Maybe its a variation of fatigue, I dont know. People should try to talk themselves through and beyond such feelings though, because if I go looking for reasons to feel gloomy about the future, its that some of those very feelings may end up contributing to future woe and the wrong behaviours at the wrong time.
 
I mean, just imagine you are playing the role of the virus in a computer game of this pandemic. How many opportunities have you got to spread now compared to when people were behaving somewhat normally around say, late February or early March? And even if thousands of people go to the beach or otherwise do things that make perople gloomy about the future, how many opportunities have I got to spread compared to the good old days? A small fraction. A big difference. The virus, relatively speaking compared to the scene it was first presented with, is locked down. Its style has been massively cramped.
 
I work in a kitchen that is also home to several dark kitchens. The Deliveroo/Uber couriers are complete (deliberate) strangers to the concept. We've tried reminding them about it in the shared corridor but have been met with hostility and/or laughter. Fucking pisses me off.
They are also probably mostly young and thinking they are unlikkely to get ill.
 
I also get pissed off because we are close to the 60,000 excess deaths mark now, not including estimates of those since 15th May. And I would very much be willing to bet my life that I would be talking about a very much lower number if we had locked down 1 or 2 weeks earlier than we did. Thoughts on this front are inevitably with me whenever I hear anything that suggests lockdown didnt do much.
 
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I think perhaps you may have misunderstood me elbows


I think the lockdown was absolutely necessary, should have happened sooner, and has had a large effect. It should have happened sooner, a fact that is now openly acknowledged.


I think the government have been inept to the point of dereliction of duty. I also think the public have been amazing. With some notable exceptions, I think on the whole we’ve all taken really good care of each other.

I also think that this virus has intermittent properties. It seems to come and go in the early stage (I feel rotten... oh I feel better... uh-oh, I’m actually ill... oh that was over quickly... oh god I feel awful...), and then the symptoms (e.g. fever, appetite, thirst and any number of other odd things reported by individuals) also seem to fluctuate. This isn’t controversial, several coronavirus seem to have this presentation.

I worry that just as the virus seems to fluctuate on the small scale, it may have this tendency on the larger scale too. This is not to dismiss or minimise the effects of lockdown at all. There’s no doubt that as bad as the numbers are here, it would have been worse had we not locked down.

I’m concerned that in the same way that someone might feel better and go back to work in the early stage of being infected, now that deaths are diminishing we might be lulled into thinking the worst is over and everything can go back to normal. I have a horrible feeling that we could all be fooled by the apparently fluctuating nature of this virus, and that it will resurge exponentially.

I’m not being defeatist. I think we humans are totally able to behave in ways that will increase our safety. I think we’re all learning , fast, how to be safe in a post pandemic world. I think we’re capable of capitalising on the opportunities it presents.


I really hope I’m wrong about this fluctuating nature being dangerous for us. But I fear it is a sneaky trick that could trip us up badly.
 
Party time!

here were balloons and banners outside the house of Rob Roberts, MP for Delyn in North Wales, marking a 40th birthday on Monday after he commented on the Dominic Cummings' row

 
I really hope I’m wrong about this fluctuating nature being dangerous for us. But I fear it is a sneaky trick that could trip us up badly.

You'd have to provide some proposed method for how or why the 'larger scale fluctuations' happen in order for me to take it seriously.

Not that it necessarily matters, since there are already other reasons why we might expect overall epidemic waves to come and go over time, and for the risk to vary over time. Especially one thats been moderated by human behavioural changes, and where human behavioural patterns will continue to vary over time.

Thinking about this stuff does not make me especially more or less concerned for the future because the way I see the next phases was actually underlined by that shit Hancock today when he went on about future lockdowns at very local levels.

The lockdown and social distancing measures we just experienced were like pulling on the largest handbrake ever in rather sudden fashion, because we were late and had failed to give ourselves other viable options. Even this shambles of a government ought to avoid getting close to that stage again in future, and now they've seen how much it costs in all sorts of ways it is unlikely their priorities will go so far astray next time, even if large sections of the public have lost interest at the time at the broad national level.

As the total number of cases shrinks, the story of this pandemic, and of preventing further hefty waves, maybe even of suppressing the bloody thing to a great extent, is local. There have actually been relatively few stories and data so far during this pandemic so far that could provide a somewhat comprehensive picture of the epidemic in particular locations. There are exceptions such as the stories of individual and family deaths, but this is just a small sampling of all the thousands of stories behind the first wave. If you work in an institutional setting that had an outbreak, or heard about such a thing happening, then thats an example of the sort of stories that, when gathered all together would tell much of the story of this virus coming and going, and where the current risk is to be found. The same front lines that there have been all along, but now the overall community cases have been dropping in many locations for a good while, the opportunities to see the outbreaks that remain more clearly, and tackle them more effectively will keep increasing.

Good disease surveillance at the local level, and an at east partially fit for purpose contact tracing system are essential in order to not squander those opportunities. In the community, and in institutions like hospitals. I will hardly be surrpised if it turns out that the UK, or England at least, fumbles all sorts of things with the surveillance, test, track & trace side of things to start with, but gradually it should get a bit better and will provide us with all sorts of options, and hopefully much better timing of response, next time the virus starts to take off. Or it never even gets the opportunity to begin to take off again because actually we manage to just keep squeezing down on the thing to the extent that even if its not close to being eradicated, it remains sporadic, with the most dramatic stories being of particular individual outbreaks.

Already it seems that the proportion of cases in hospital that caught it in hospital is increasing, even as the overall number is falling, because such infections are not falling as quickly as ones that are happening in the wider community. Indeed some hospital infection situations are the sorts of incidents that can, if not dealt with effectively at that particular location at some point, keep on burning even once community spread has fallen to notably low levels. This is clearly a front that is getting more attention now as circumstances increasingly allow, and, much like effective shielding for care homes, make a real difference to the situation we find outselves in further down the road.

And we dont even have to buy into the idea that we will completely get the virus cornered one day, in order to recognise that we can still get great results by tackling chains of transmission at the local level using a whole array of relatively unsophisticated but practical means. As long as things dont go rocketing up again imminently then there is time for even this crappy government and other levels of establishment and authority to get some of this stuff up and running. And when that stuff is running, how then will the virus trick us into letting our guards down against an unexpected reemergence? With surveillance we will see it coming, or at least be aware that it has arrived, and where. There will likely be times when the response to a particular outbreak is lacking, but there are still many further forms of mass, sustained transmission required between a failure at the local level and the thing running wild across the country again.

Some of the sudden change of priorities the government have been forced into due to this pandemic (and their initial lacklustre response) may be temporary and they will seek to roll back on them ASAP. But various infection control measures are not on that list, even if the public and the nationwide rules get rather loose, other guards will remain. Because all the basic surveillance etc measures the government and local authorities can do in future are so, so much cheaper and attractive to them than the economy-freezing lockdown. It will be many years before establishments around the world are tempted to push pandemics and respiratory diseases and indeed public health in general as far down the agenda as they did in the doomed decades run up to this pandemic.
 
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I mean, just imagine you are playing the role of the virus in a computer game of this pandemic. How many opportunities have you got to spread now compared to when people were behaving somewhat normally around say, late February or early March? And even if thousands of people go to the beach or otherwise do things that make perople gloomy about the future, how many opportunities have I got to spread compared to the good old days? A small fraction. A big difference. The virus, relatively speaking compared to the scene it was first presented with, is locked down. Its style has been massively cramped.

An important thing to remember is that unlike the computer game version a real virus only mutates or changes its behaviour in one place at a time, so even if one local strain becomes less virulent that's not going to have much of an effect, especially when transmission rates are (hopefully) low. New style Covid-19 might take a month to infect 10 people, in which time original recipe Covid-19 has maybe infected another 100,000 worldwide.
 
Some rumours of dentists back in the middle of June here's how they may look like.

 
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I’m not asking you to take it seriously though. I’m not pushing this idea as a fact.

I’m speculating, I’m thinking out loud, just sharing my thoughts. That’s okay, isn’t it?
The way you write doesn't come across as thinking aloud, whether that's intentional or not.
 
If you only needed the most basic look at the ONS's COVID-19 deaths by some rather broad age groups, its in their summary article about this weeks data release.

Figure 4 from Deaths registered weekly in England and Wales, provisional - Office for National Statistics

chartimage


If you also want all deaths, rather than only ones with COVID-19 on death certificate, or you want these and COVID-19 deaths broken down into much smaller age groups, you need the full data release for weekly deaths:


Tabs of particular relevance in that spreadsheet are 'Weekly figures 2020", "Covid-19 Weekly registrations", "Covid-19 Weekly Occurrences" and perhaps "UK - Covid-19 - Weekly reg". Some of them will give you the totals, for others you will have to add a column to add them up yourself.

The bit I cannot point you in the right direction of would be the normal number of deaths per week for each of the age groups. So tend to end up counting all deaths, not excess deaths, when looking at these numbers. I mean it is possible to look at the deaths for each age group in the weeks of this year before the pandemic really got going, to see what sort of range those deaths were in before. But this is imprecise and I think for some weeks earlier this year the deaths were actually a bit below the normal rate (probably in part as the flu season was early and affected 2019 more than 2020). We are given overall figures for normal number of deaths per week (5 year average), but these arent by age in the data I tend to find, so for actual excess estimations I just use overall numbers rather than by age.

Perfect, thank you, just what I needed. You are, as you have consistently demonstrated on these threads, a star.
 
I’m not asking you to take it seriously though. I’m not pushing this idea as a fact.

I’m speculating, I’m thinking out loud, just sharing my thoughts. That’s okay, isn’t it?

My responses probably say more about my own ability to cope with this phase than anything else. I'm having trouble adjusting to the amount of negativity and gloom that seems to be doing the rounds. I'm going to pick at the details of that from time to time, and there were things in your post which got me going on that angle.

I wont do this every single time someone says something I disagree with. But even when I resist nine out of ten opportunities to use someone elses thoughts in order to state my own, some will slip through. Hopefully not often enough that people are put off from sharing their genuine concerns for the future, but of course I cannot be sure of that, continual criticism can have a chilling effect on broader participation, I'm concious of that but not always able to stop myself contributing to the phenomenon.
 
Slightly worrying but expected really after the lockdown eased. No tracing yet either. If they don't start soon then it might be too many again.

Nearly got to zero deaths in London then back up we go. Five days to get sick and a five to get really sick and die. We are um 16 days from slight easing of the lockdown I think.

If this isn't a blip do your best to welcome Mr Lockdown in your home again. I think positive tests would give a better idea of the state of play, people can be on ventilators for weeks.

Rest of England
(positive test)
Rest of England
(no positive test)
London
(positive test)
London
(no positive test)
20 May16824198
21 May10512167
22 May13829191
23 May1421651
24 May55341
25 May10610106
26 May16822152
 
Slightly worrying but expected really after the lockdown eased. No tracing yet either. If they don't start soon then it might be too many again.

Nearly got to zero deaths in London then back up we go. Five days to get sick and a five to get really sick and die. We are um 16 days from slight easing of the lockdown I think.

If this isn't a blip do your best to welcome Mr Lockdown in your home again. I think positive tests would give a better idea of the state of play, people can be on ventilators for weeks.

Rest of England
(positive test)
Rest of England
(no positive test)
London
(positive test)
London
(no positive test)
20 May16824198
21 May10512167
22 May13829191
23 May1421651
24 May55341
25 May10610106
26 May16822152

I'm sorry but this looks like a graph that tells us nothing. Tests for everyone above 5 were introduced on the 18th and then its remained largely stable except on weekends. I don't want to be rude but this seems to be another example of exactly what elbows is talking about upthread.
 
Slightly worrying but expected really after the lockdown eased. No tracing yet either. If they don't start soon then it might be too many again.

Nearly got to zero deaths in London then back up we go. Five days to get sick and a five to get really sick and die. We are um 16 days from slight easing of the lockdown I think.

If this isn't a blip do your best to welcome Mr Lockdown in your home again. I think positive tests would give a better idea of the state of play, people can be on ventilators for weeks.

Rest of England
(positive test)
Rest of England
(no positive test)
London
(positive test)
London
(no positive test)
20 May16824198
21 May10512167
22 May13829191
23 May1421651
24 May55341
25 May10610106
26 May16822152
Weekend/bank holiday reporting delays, that's all. A rolling seven-day average is better for that reason. On the face of it, the overall trend there is still down.
 
We did not nearly get to 0 London deaths and then it went back up again. Its just normal weekend reporting fluctuations and other reporting delays, and the overall trend is still downwards. Even when it really hits days with 0 deaths, I would still expect to see some small fluctuations, ie some subsequent days where there are a few deaths again.

edit - ahh I see I was a little late.
 
Plus if we only look at deaths with no detail about those deaths, we wont be able to tell the difference between community cases going up again, and outbreaks leading to death that are actually outbreaks and ongoing transmission within particular hospitals etc, rather than broader community spread.
 
Although if people have lots of spare time to keep an eye on that stuff then I might recommend doing things like starting to graph daily NHS England deaths from particular hospital trusts. Because it isnt like the story and trends are the same for every hospital trust.

Here is a sampling of a bunch of hospital trusts in the midlands. But beware, the numbers dont tell the real story, eg are some of these ongoing issues down to issues of spread in the community, or within some of the hospitals themselves?

When its a really large trust that had an early outbreak, the picture is a good match for what we've learnt from overall stats, eg:
Screenshot 2020-05-27 at 15.38.22.png
But things are not quite so straightforward elsewhere:

Screenshot 2020-05-27 at 15.38.31.png
Screenshot 2020-05-27 at 15.38.48.png
Screenshot 2020-05-27 at 15.39.02.png
Screenshot 2020-05-27 at 15.39.15.png
All data is from yesterdays version of NHS England data, from the deaths by trust tab.


One obvious thing I could say from this is that there is always some noise in the picture, and when the numbers of deaths involved are very low, the noise is a much bigger influence on the overall picture, the dribble will not be entirely consistent and small fluctuations are not necessarily a sign of anything important. But there are likely other stories in some of the above graphs, but we dont usually have the detail of such stories.
 
I would be quite happy if some other people picked various hospital trusts to graph. For example, it has been said that things have not been going well in Barrow in Furness. I havent even got as far as figuring out which hospital trust(s) serve that area, but if someone did then I would like to see if anything shows up in those hospital stats.
 
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