Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

[Wilf]

He suggests the ventilators were a distraction and the Nightingales surplus to requirements and there is massive cross-infection within hospitals and into care-homes.
And that the virus should not have been downgraded - hospital deaths almost on ebola scale

That all sounds very sensible and certainly explains why it's like fucking Passchendaele in the care homes.

 

[little_legs]

'We mourn for the lives lost and we mourn for the economic damage as well'

Can we have a minute of silence for the GDP.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That all sounds very sensible and certainly explains why it's like fucking Passchendaele in the care homes.

Sending people they knew were infected from hospital to care homes.

Have I got that right? That's what they did. On purpose. As a decision, as a policy. He's being very reasonable and mild calling that negligence. I don't quite have the words.

 

[editor]

Much as it pains me to share a Mail article, it is enjoyable to see Boris's criminal handling of the crisis being exposed in a right wing rag, even when the message is coming the reigning Doublle Douche Of All Douchebags, Piers Morgan.

We were scandalously slow and complacent in our response to its outbreak.

We were scandalously under-prepared for it, particularly when it came to stock-piling Personal Protection Equipment for health workers and securing enough coronavirus tests as soon as the severity of the crisis became clear.

We were scandalously late to order a lockdown.

We were scandalously complicit in sending infected elderly hospital patients back to care homes without testing them.

And we’ve been scandalously inconsistent in performing policy U-turn after policy U-turn.

As I watched the briefing today, I saw a Prime Minister who knows all this but is desperately trying to avoid any blame or accountability.

PIERS MORGAN: Boris can boast but the death toll tells the real story

PIERS MORGAN: Boris is back! And everything's going to be great! That was the emphatic message sent to the country today.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[two sheds]

Sending people they knew were infected from hospital to care homes.

Have I got that right? That's what they did. On purpose. As a decision, as a policy. He's being very reasonable and mild calling that negligence. I don't quite have the words.

Yes, from 9:20 onwards. And patients who were in hospitals for non Corona illnesses became infected and then were moved out to care homes, so infecting them: "negligent".

Jesus.

 

[teqniq]

What kind of fuckery is this?

Southmead Hospital workers in zero-hour contract 'nightmare'

One worker says she was told she could apply for Universal Credit when she asked how she was meant to support herself

www.bristolpost.co.uk

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Much as it pains me to share a Mail article, it is enjoyable to see Boris's criminal handling of the crisis being exposed in a right wing rag, even when the message is coming the reigning Doublle Douche Of All Douchebags, Piers Morgan.

PIERS MORGAN: Boris can boast but the death toll tells the real story

PIERS MORGAN: Boris is back! And everything's going to be great! That was the emphatic message sent to the country today.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I posted this in the world thread, but I think it's relevant here as well, in a 'compare and contrast' kind of way. This page, from Ireland, contains an excellent summary of the relevant stats plus links to the minutes of every meeting of the Govt Emergency Covid committee dating back to January. This is what democratic accountability looks like. Democracy in the UK is in real trouble at the moment.

Gov.ie - Latest updates on COVID-19 (Coronavirus)

 

[kalidarkone]

What kind of fuckery is this?

Southmead Hospital workers in zero-hour contract 'nightmare'

One worker says she was told she could apply for Universal Credit when she asked how she was meant to support herself

www.bristolpost.co.uk

Bank and agency staff are on zero hours contracts. NHS has refused to furlough. But bank staff have been invited to apply for substantive posts.
Things will be back to normalish in a couple of weeks so there will be work.
Although given the nhs debt has been wiped they should at least furlough the bank staff.

 

[existentialist]

Yes, from 9:20 onwards. And patients who were in hospitals for non Corona illnesses became infected and then were moved out to care homes, so infecting them: "negligent".

Jesus.

Be nice to think it was criminal negligence, and could be pinned on a policy decision, but that's a forlorn hope.

 

[bimble]

I just got an advert email from this place where i once went to get a vaccination jab - saying come and get a coronavirus test for £100. Is that normal is that where we are now?

COVID-19 Antibody Tests | South London | Heath Hub

COVID-19 / Coronavirus antibody tests now available at HealthHub in Herne Hill, South London. Results available within 30 minutes.

www.healthhub.london

 

[LDC]

I just got an advert email from this place where i once went to get a vaccination jab - saying come and get a coronavirus test for £100. Is that normal is that where we are now?

COVID-19 Antibody Tests | South London | Heath Hub

COVID-19 / Coronavirus antibody tests now available at HealthHub in Herne Hill, South London. Results available within 30 minutes.

www.healthhub.london

WTF? Private clinic at best, scam at worst?

Quick look at 'The Team', mostly quacks. Looks like a private clinic that's managed to source some anti-body tests and is flogging them among their usual services. Wouldn't trust the reliability of those tests at all. Nor would I give those cunts my money.

 

[bimble]

WTF? Private clinic at best, scam at worst?

it is a private medical clinic in a railway arch in herne hill. Just very wtf about them offering this .

 

[sparkybird]

I spoke to someone today who lives in Guatemala City and he was describing how lockdown and mask wearing has been enforced there, for weeks, really massive fines for breaking the rules on either, police & army roadblocks everywhere. It’s just so strange to see the choices each country makes faced with the same thing.

Yup my friends said the same in Xela (second largest city) but also that food is becoming very expensive, many have no income, she has no idea how she'll pay her rent in June (thank goodness I'm in a position to help) and that supposed government food handouts are being taken by those who don't need them.
The consequences of the much stricter lock down could be worse than the bloody virus...

 

[bimble]

Yup my friends said the same in Xela (second largest city) but also that food is becoming very expensive, many have no income, she has no idea how she'll pay her rent in June (thank goodness I'm in a position to help) and that supposed government food handouts are being taken by those who don't need them.
The consequences of the much stricter lock down could be worse than the bloody virus...

Yes. Man i spoke to works in a charity, usually a school (next to the giant rubbish dump). For weeks now they’ve been bringing food parcels to families who are literally starving due to lockdown (dump is closed, they all work there picking out things to sell on). Definitely worse than the virus, from sounds of it.

 

[LDC]

Yes, from 9:20 onwards. And patients who were in hospitals for non Corona illnesses became infected and then were moved out to care homes, so infecting them: "negligent".

Jesus.

This is a massively complicated and emotive issue.

What do you suggest we do with people that come in from care homes with other medical issues and then get tested + for CV, or come in with CV symptoms that are mild and don't require them to need hospital care?

You can't keep them in hospital for weeks or months (and wouldn't be good for them) and it would completely bring the whole hospital system to a grinding halt. On top of CV care many of them obviously many of them need high levels of other non-CV related care that would take up huge amounts of resources and people, and that would impact on all other aspects of medical provision if it could be provided.

People being sent back to care homes were sent back with instructions to the home for care to lessen them spreading the infection. What are we supposed to have done (and do) with them, if you think that isn't right? Should they have all gone to some other newly set-up institution like one of the Nightingale hospitals? Somewhere else? Stayed in hospital, almost certainly with many of them picking up all sorts of other issues?

The care home system is fucked, but it's what we're stuck with in the here and now.

 

[Cid]

This is a massively complicated and emotive issue.

What do you suggest we do with people that come in from care homes with other medical issues and then get tested + for CV, or come in with CV symptoms that are mild and don't require them to need hospital care?

You can't keep them in hospital for weeks or months (and wouldn't be good for them) and it would completely bring the whole hospital system to a grinding halt. On top of CV care many of them obviously many of them need high levels of other non-CV related care that would take up huge amounts of resources and people, and that would impact on all other aspects of medical provision if it could be provided.

People being sent back to care homes were sent back with instructions to the home for care to lessen them spreading the infection. What are we supposed to have done (and do) with them, if you think that isn't right? Should they have all gone to some other newly set-up institution like one of the Nightingale hospitals? Somewhere else? Stayed in hospital, almost certainly with many of them picking up all sorts of other issues?

The care home system is fucked, but it's what we're stuck with in the here and now.

Wasn't that the point in the Nightingale hospitals? But basically the answer is 'anything but send them back to care homes with non CV positive residents'. I mean... 'Sending instructions' is never going to be sufficient in a complex environment that varies from home to home and carer to carer. I wouldn't for a moment blame whoever made those transfers, or even at a higher level in terms of hospitals simply enacting government policy. But that policy is clearly flawed.

 

[Jay Park]

This is a massively complicated and emotive issue.

What do you suggest we do with people that come in from care homes with other medical issues and then get tested + for CV, or come in with CV symptoms that are mild and don't require them to need hospital care?

You can't keep them in hospital for weeks or months (and wouldn't be good for them) and it would completely bring the whole hospital system to a grinding halt. On top of CV care many of them obviously many of them need high levels of other non-CV related care that would take up huge amounts of resources and people, and that would impact on all other aspects of medical provision if it could be provided.

People being sent back to care homes were sent back with instructions to the home for care to lessen them spreading the infection. What are we supposed to have done (and do) with them, if you think that isn't right? Should they have all gone to some other newly set-up institution like one of the Nightingale hospitals? Somewhere else? Stayed in hospital, almost certainly with many of them picking up all sorts of other issues?

The care home system is fucked, but it's what we're stuck with in the here and now.

I dunno erm... Maybe expect the worst and copy exactly what the countries whom have been successful (so far) did.

Set up make-shift hospitals in February and put the state on red alert. Even these clowns ignoring that pandemic thing in 2016 would have still heard through the vine what Germany was up to. Wait no I give their capacity for awareness way too much slack there.

 

[two sheds]

This is a massively complicated and emotive issue.

What do you suggest we do with people that come in from care homes with other medical issues and then get tested + for CV, or come in with CV symptoms that are mild and don't require them to need hospital care?

You can't keep them in hospital for weeks or months (and wouldn't be good for them) and it would completely bring the whole hospital system to a grinding halt. On top of CV care many of them obviously many of them need high levels of other non-CV related care that would take up huge amounts of resources and people, and that would impact on all other aspects of medical provision if it could be provided.

People being sent back to care homes were sent back with instructions to the home for care to lessen them spreading the infection. What are we supposed to have done (and do) with them, if you think that isn't right? Should they have all gone to some other newly set-up institution like one of the Nightingale hospitals? Somewhere else? Stayed in hospital, almost certainly with many of them picking up all sorts of other issues?

The care home system is fucked, but it's what we're stuck with in the here and now.

The instructions don't seem to have been very successful, do you know what they were? And instructions aren't enough - care homes would need extra staff and extra equipment and financing and training, and it should have been properly supervised and monitored. As you say the care home system is already fucked - adding to that stress was bound to spread the infection around.

I presume the staff weren't given proper PPE, so staff will have caught it. Did they work exclusively for the cv patients? Again, instructions to do that wouldn't be enough if their usual residents would then have been ignored. You'd think people already in care homes are by definition vulnerable. It also looks as if visitors were allowed, again passing it around.

In hospitals they moved people out to free up beds. If they couldn't ensure isolated wards then perhaps dedicated care homes or open up some of the empty hotels, certainly strict rules to prevent cross contamination. As Ashton said, a lot of these people had gone into hospital in the first place for non-CV reasons and then been contaminated in hospital. Then to put them into care homes or anywhere else without ensuring there was no cross contamination he says is a "failure of basic biosecurity".

 

[Azrael]

Wasn't that the point in the Nightingale hospitals? But basically the answer is 'anything but send them back to care homes with non CV positive residents'. I mean... 'Sending instructions' is never going to be sufficient in a complex environment that varies from home to home and carer to carer. I wouldn't for a moment blame whoever made those transfers, or even at a higher level in terms of hospitals simply enacting government policy. But that policy is clearly flawed.

They were set up as overspill capacity, not as dedicated fever hospitals like China's. Whether as a consequence of the "herd immunity" insanity or simple incompetence, there's been no concerted national effort to isolate infectious cases from vulnerable groups, let alone the general population. "Shielding" was so much empty rhetoric.

 

[Chilli.s]

The thing that makes any of these failed plans impossible to succeed is that in every situation there was the lack of all types of PPE.

 

[Jay Park]

They were set up as overspill capacity, not as dedicated fever hospitals like China's. Whether as a consequence of the "herd immunity" insanity or simple incompetence, there's been no concerted national effort to isolate infectious cases from vulnerable groups, let alone the general population. "Shielding" was so much empty rhetoric.

I can’t listen to that ‘herd immunity’ phrase anymore.

When I wing it I expect to be called out for doing so. When I’m being (poss in this case) nefandous, I expect to be hounded.

 

[zahir]

What is most likely to happen, therefore, is that when the prime minister allows a limited, cautious relaxation, the case and death rates will start to drift up again. The rise may be quite slow initially, as many of the disparate outbreaks have died out for lack of fresh meat. New ones may take time to get started.

And, of course, the government and its agencies will be fiddling the figures for all they are worth. When they can't get away with that, they will be blurring and obfuscating the data, aiming to confuse and distract, robbing the figures of meaning. They will try anything in an attempt to slow down and weaken the inevitable flood of adverse comment and political blowback.

No doubt, the government team driving the response to this epidemic will be hoping that the plans to install their mobile phone-based contact tracing system can be implemented quickly. If the are, the new system may take the edge off any increase.

It wouldn't surprise me if they were then banking on the inherent lag in the death figures buying them enough time to get us in to the early summer, when the hope will be that the infection rate will drop naturally, exhibiting the seasonal variations which are so often a feature of this type of illness.

Even if they manage to hold the case rate down, that doesn't solve the problem. Their app-based contact tracing scheme is unlikely to achieve anything other than a marginal slowdown in the progress of the epidemic. And, if the illness does exhibit seasonal variation, then come the autumn and winter, we could be back where we started.

EU Referendum

eureferendum.com

 

[zahir]

 

[gentlegreen]

WTF? Private clinic at best, scam at worst?

Quick look at 'The Team', mostly quacks. Looks like a private clinic that's managed to source some anti-body tests and is flogging them among their usual services. Wouldn't trust the reliability of those tests at all. Nor would I give those cunts my money.

Indeed :-

Nutritional therapy: how it works


Nutritional Therapy is a patient-centred and evidence-based approach to healthcare that recognises the biological uniqueness of each patient. In Nutritional Therapy, protocols are tailored towards maintaining health and promoting vitality and wellness by identifying biochemical imbalances and nutrient depletions, and by incorporating nutrient rich foods and supplement protocols.
Nutritional therapy is based on a Functional Medicine framework, which addresses the underlying causes of disease by treating the whole person, not just an isolated set of symptoms. The framework uses a personalised approach that empowers patients to take an active role in their own health, and offers a powerful clinical model for assessment, treatment and prevention of chronic disease.
What can nutritional therapy help with?

Nutritional therapy can help with the following:



Hormonal imbalances
Weight management
Detoxification
Premature ageing
Stress & Anxiety
Fatigue
A weak immune system
Digestive issues

Gawd help us if this is what the Tories have in mind to placate the better-off ...

 

[Azrael]

I can’t listen to that ‘herd immunity’ phrase anymore.

When I wing it I expect to be called out for doing so. When I’m being (poss in this case) nefandous, I expect to be hounded.

I still force myself to use it -- minus quote marks -- in its proper context of mass vaccination, but feel exactly the same, it sets off a Pavlovian response. Vaccinologists will need to create a replacement -- "community shield" or something similar -- because herd immunity's irreparably tainted now: a phrase that once meant protecting the vulnerable now means sacrificing them on the altar of junk science and therapeutic nihilism.

 

[LDC]

I dunno erm... Maybe expect the worst and copy exactly what the countries whom have been successful (so far) did.

Set up make-shift hospitals in February and put the state on red alert. Even these clowns ignoring that pandemic thing in 2016 would have still heard through the vine what Germany was up to. Wait no I give their capacity for awareness way too much slack there.

Re: the make shift hospitals or using the Nightingale's and moving care home residents there.

So, you'd move them there out of their familiar environment, and to places that are quite likely to be far from unsuitable for their needs? Many patients with conditions such as dementia or physical needs like hoisting that makes their care very complex, even more so in unfamiliar places. How long would you put them there for, and who would look after them?

Would you give them this option or make it compulsory, as I am willing to bet most would want to take the risk and go back to their home.

I totally agree there's been some massive failings, but I also think there was no ideal answer with the care homes, just some less bad ones.

 

[teqniq]

Bank and agency staff are on zero hours contracts. NHS has refused to furlough. But bank staff have been invited to apply for substantive posts.
Things will be back to normalish in a couple of weeks so there will be work.
Although given the nhs debt has been wiped they should at least furlough the bank staff.

Thanks for the precis which I should have put in. Also large parts of the hospital are empty. It's the refusal to furlough staff that gets me though as the government has stated as it says in the article that people on zero hours contracts are eligible for it.

 

[andysays]

Re: the make shift hospitals or using the Nightingale's and moving care home residents there.

So, you'd move them there out of their familiar environment, and to places that are quite likely to be far from unsuitable for their needs? Many patients with conditions such as dementia or physical needs like hoisting that makes their care very complex, even more so in unfamiliar places. How long would you put them there for, and who would look after them?

Would you give them this option or make it compulsory, as I am willing to bet most would want to take the risk and go back to their home.

I totally agree there's been some massive failings, but I also think there was no ideal answer, just some less bad ones.

The risk of returning patients to care homes is that they infect others, so giving them the option doesn't really make sense.

It's a really difficult issue, made even more difficult by the private nature of care homes.

It's impossible in practice to separate and protect the non-infected from the infected, unless the latter are cared for in separate premises and by separate staff.

 

[LDC]

The risk of returning patients to care homes is that they infect others, so giving them the option doesn't really make sense.

Do you have any idea of how complex and what a minefield it would be dealing with every single care home resident that wanted to go home but you needed to 'detain' and send to a dedicated CV+ place? And the corresponding uproar if that had happened?

 

[andysays]

Returning to the issue of workplaces where strict 2 metre distancing isn't possible all the time, there are a number of measures that can be taken.

Firstly, people can minimise the time they spend in close proximity, and do it without directly facing and therefore breathing on each other.

And secondly, minimising the number of people each person is in close proximity to, so that one person can only infect the smallest number rather than the whole workforce.

In my job, we normally work with teams of up to four people in one (large, with two rows of seats) van. Because some people are off and we've got a few extra vans, we are now able to work in teams of just two per van, and we're making sure we keep in the same team of two all the time, so each person is only in close proximity to one other person.

This doesn't eliminate risk, but it does reduce it to what I think is an acceptable level in the circumstances.