Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion
- Thread starter Sasaferrato
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elbows
Well-Known Member
What I never realised fully about attitudes towards stoicism, fear etc, was some of the national roots of this stuff. As propaganda in time of war etc is sort of obvious. But I didnt know so much about the attitudes towards the officer class supposedly being immunised against such fears by the public school system and focus on competitive games. Nor did I realise that there were old medical attitudes that suggested the fear of a disease made it more likely you would catch it.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Regulating the 1918–19 Pandemic: Flu, Stoicism and the Northcliffe Press
Social historians have argued that the reason the 1918–19 ‘Spanish’ influenza left so few traces in public memory is that it was ‘overshadowed’ by the First World War, hence its historiographical characterisation ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
sheothebudworths
Up the bum - no babies!!!
I work in a school, too - and I do understand the need to minimise panic/stress there, of course, while I'm also much less frontline than either of you, but where I also work in the kitchen/canteen.
We have sanitiser by all the tills but there has been no instruction/advice for the kids to use it, it's just there if they want to (on my till, I reckon about five kids have, out of hundreds, over the past couple of weeks).
I know we have to balance things carefully, that you don't want to scare anyone without any good reason and that you do need to keep perspective etc.
In my kitchen, with the work culture we have there, we also still have people turning up ill and as a parent, I know there has also been huge discouragement of children going off sick, for years now, unless they have temperatures etc (I guess down to other, external, political factors based around absence etc).
All of that has fucked me off for a long time prior to this, too - the active encouragement of people attending work/school when they're ill.
planetgeli - what are the methods you'd suggest yourself, then (highlighted)? Genuinely interested - is it just higher numbers for you? For a disease that has an exponential rate of transmission?
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Fear is many things. There are better ways of explaining necessity than scaring them. That's already producing counter-productive results. It also won't work on everybody.
I really need to point out panic to you? I already did with the one example I quoted from someone on here saying we should close down everything if cases reach 200. People are playing numbers games and some of those people have no real idea of arithmetic. Panic is in the language too. Jump.
You followed calling panic and fear "sweeping labels" with a sweeping generalisation. Nice.
It's a UK thread. Though I have quoted the low mortality rate in Korea in another thread. For balance. Not to play things down. But to encourage perspective.
Complaints about panic and fear aren't clearing the shelves of hand sanitiser in Grimsby.
Miss-Shelf
I'll meet you further on up the road
I'd like to see this too. In recent weeks I've been reflecting just how crowded my journey to work is. Anytime I travel after 7 and before 9 30am I'm spending nearly 1.5 hours in very, very close proximity to other people. Some of it brief but some of it wedged up against each other for quite some time. Uggh even without an epidemic looming.
If universities switched to online learning I could work from home and use video conferencing for meeting students if necessary. obviously, UCU strike is helping somewhat
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
I liked the rest of your post a lot btw.
Not sure what or why you're asking me here though? I'm not a doctor or Professional Disaster Logistician. On a personal level, sure wash your hands more, buy a mask so you don't give it to me...I'm not sure what you mean about is it just a numbers game for me? It's about perspective. For me. I don't think people worrying and scaring themselves (or having it done to them) is particularly healthy or helpful in approach. I think its here, we're stuck with it, and you deal with what is put in front of you.
If people are genuinely worried about the scope for disaster here, go around your locality and find those who are truly vulnerable to it, which is those over 60 with pre-existing conditions, plenty of these people about, and go and talk with them, re-assure them, take their emergency details and keep in contact with them. Buy them a bog roll instead of 24 for yourself.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I suppose I am inclined to look for what detail is missing when it comes to statements about the death.
So in this case, the missing detail that first catches my attention is when they were admitted for the final time.
2h ago 17:23
So in this case, the missing detail that first catches my attention is when they were admitted for the final time.
Fez909
toilet expert
"If you're worried about the consequences of people being in proximity to each other, why not go visit all the vulnerable strangers in your neighbourhood you would never normally come into contact with?"
sheothebudworths
Up the bum - no babies!!!
I'm interested in the way the chief medical officer Chris Whitty has been in receipt of ludicrously overblown puff pieces across the press today - one sample here, but there's more elsewhere. I'm sure Whitty is a capable physician and a calm and reassuring presence, but that reads like full on wartime propaganda.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Yes I posted about that piece last night (I think), it wasnt exactly subtle was it? I havent seen any others so thanks for bringing to attention the idea that this phenomenon has become widespread.
I suppose I'm not surprised. When faith in the politicians is diminished, and we have been going through a divisive period, when a famous liar is in number 10, and where 'we've had enough of experts' was used by some of the Brexiteer politicians to justify ignoring unhelpful reports and projections, they probably thought they needed to lay this expert rehabilitation on rather thick and rather quickly.
Fez909
toilet expert
You beat me to it, but this is really important, it's worth saying again and again. This is a terrible idea.
I was thinking earlier on what a community response to what is a very anti-social issue might look like.
sihhi was talking about your local councillor being an organiser of supplies for your area or volunteers. I don't think that's likely to happen, but we need something along those lines.
I was thinking about a website that divides people into pods - local families, if you will. And similar to the way the Chinese are managing it, we could have the pod representative go do the shopping so that the rest don't have to go out. You can communicate with your pod on there and let me know what you need.
They should be given extra PPE as they will be the most at risk, and most risky to others. They need to be well monitored. And could also report back to authorities on who needs help in a hospital rather than at home.
Proper Neighbour Watch.
And to those who think this is a reaction due to 'only' 115 infect: don't forget that was the number of people infected 10-15 days ago. The true picture is much higher already and is only going to get worse.
yeah - whoops, we've spent the last few years bringing public trust in politicians and civil servants to a level where no-one believes a word they or we say...
Also interested to note that his dad, a diplomat, was assassinated in Athens in the mid 80s in a way which suggests he was definitely a spook.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Should they?
Official NHS guidance is that if you have travelled to/from an affected area or have been in contact with a confirmed covid19 sufferer then self isolate and report to 111. If you have not and have symptoms then don't. There are loads of colds and flus about and obviously normal rules apply about not spreading your illness around as much as is possible but most people can't just freeze life for two weeks because they've had a cough or a runny nose with no reason to think it's the Great Corona
tommers
It was... Rebekah Vardy's account
Literally sent out that exact email yesterday.
Steel Icarus
ersatz maven
If we are instructed to stay indoors for a period of time other than a few going out for supplies Mrs SI's dad has been readying himself for end times/zombie shit show for ages so we'll just send him out for supplies every few days or summat
What I never realised fully about attitudes towards stoicism, fear etc, was some of the national roots of this stuff. As propaganda in time of war etc is sort of obvious. But I didnt know so much about the attitudes towards the officer class supposedly being immunised against such fears by the public school system and focus on competitive games. Nor did I realise that there were old medical attitudes that suggested the fear of a disease made it more likely you would catch it.
Regulating the 1918–19 Pandemic: Flu, Stoicism and the Northcliffe Press
Social historians have argued that the reason the 1918–19 ‘Spanish’ influenza left so few traces in public memory is that it was ‘overshadowed’ by the First World War, hence its historiographical characterisation ...
i'm not sure if the 1918 pandemic changed society as much as i would think, would value amny literature on its long term effects, etc
Miss-Shelf
I'll meet you further on up the road
working in a nursery trained me to do this ...not that it stopped me getting covered in snot every day from young'uns
elbows
Well-Known Member
If you can get to the point where you at least notice quickly after every time you make that mistake, eventually your brain will hopefully kick into gear just before it happens rather than just after, you will start to catch yourself doing it in the nick of time.
I've definitely noticed my habits changing after 3 or 4 days of trying to change them.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Yeah a bit earlier I was on about some book about the 1918 pandemic being forgotten in the USA, but I havent got the book yet. I think it was mentioned in the stoicism paper I linked to, but I forget. I think the paper suggests that 1918 pandemic didnt leave that much of an imprint in the end, but the paper has quite a narrow and specific focus so I doubt it is anything like the full story, and I bet there is also some variation depending on what country we are talking about.
I suppose the context of that pandemic would have had some effect - people were already in mass death mode of the world war 1 variety, albeit death in that war tended to target a much narrower demographic.
Anyway history may be a problematic guide to what the results of this current virus ultimately are. It could change everything, or not so much. I bet it will be a subject I will go on about for years and years either way (if I'm still around to do so). I'd like to study other pandemics in the meantime, but as far as guessing what the political etc impact of this pandemic is going to be, I better not dedicate too much attention to that at this early stage. Best case scenario: the priorities of the people of the world are transformed in a non-fickle manner. But unfortunately this scenario likely requires worst-case outcomes, havoc and horror from the disease itself, and I'd rather be all wrong about that.
I was thinking earlier about this, and wonder if the 2008 financial crash might give us a more useful guide about how things might change - China's sudden emergence as one of the serious superpowers in the last decade is down to it's agile response to the crash - we can already see how it's response to this crisis has quickly got it's own infections under control, while foot-dragging and denial is likely to make it a much longer and deeper crisis in many other places, especially the US and Europe...
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