Control/Power;And how the revolution can and will come from the majority

[durruti02]

it is not worth answering properly mate as you are accusing me of half a dozen things that i have not written and are simply not true and at the same time ignoring that we agree on the OP .. odd

 

[durruti02]

brassic .. sometimes(often!) i don't get you .. clearly you and me agree on most things .. clearly we agree on that OP that what the w/c, who ARE the majority, suffer most in 2009 is NOT material hardship BUT total disempowerment .. i totally accept the level of material poverty and maybe was too glib but my point was IF we wish to unite the 40 million or so w/c people in this country it will not be done around poverty .. but around power and control .. sometimes i feel you are looking for a row instead of finding political solutions which is my game

 

[brasicritique]

So if i had just agreed with you then you would have responded to my post. Thats a laughable attitude to adopt. I have merely raised questions with regards to the content , and its language in your own two posts on this thread. I have also pointed out what i consider are some very dubious generalisations you have made in responding to my posts, generalisations which themselves alienate the very people you claim to want to help. yet you appear unable to see the contradiction of this postion. In this sense your responses, are arrogant and glib.

As for the rest of you

Call an Anarchist a rich kid and you all have a fit . Be duruti2 and make sweeping generalisations in posts which contain veiws and political language that is more at home in the newshamebore /tory parties and none of you lot bat an eyelid.

 

[durruti02]

brassic sometimes you give a very strong impression of just shit stirring

let me ask you a question how many people are in the w/c and lower middle class and how many people are in what you call poverty?

 

[Shevek]

It is those who have enough who will make a REAL revolution. .. .

I agree that the majority of people have to be involved in a revolution. Anarchism/Libertarian Socialism needs to captivate people. It needs to posit an alternative future. A future in which people have autonomy and control over their own lives. I am a liberal democrat with anarchist leanings. I would join an anarchist group but my partner is a Lib Dem and it is easier to go along with the flow rather than strike out and forge a new identity as part of Solfed or the IWW. I realise that I might reach a limit with the Lib Dems at which point I will consider jumping ship but for the time being I am happy to agitate for a left-libertarian position within the lib dems. Many people on these boards seem to consider the Lib Dems a neoliberal party and that may be partly true. What I like to think is that the Lib Dems are at least interested in preserving the welfare state. They are in favour of preserving civil liberties. They propose a federal decentralised system of government. I would also press for the repeal of anti trade union laws. I think the Lib Dems could be the 'radical' party. Although I sympathise with the anarchist point of view I am not a purist I think an elected government can do a lot of good. Allende's government in Chile would be a case in point a democratically elected communist government. In my heart I am an anarchist but my ties with my boyfriend draw me to being a Lib Dem. I will work within that until I feel I have reached the limit of what I can achieve.

 

[brasicritique]

brassic .. sometimes(often!) i don't get you ..

And the point of this statement is..Oh yes the point was to make it appear that you 'dont get me ' with a dash of mild humour in a way which makes it look like your , honest and a genuinly perplexed injured party

clearly you and me agree on most things .. clearly we agree on that OP that what the w/c, who ARE the majority, suffer most in 2009 is NOT material hardship BUT total disempowerment ..

No you presume to much. Go back and read the posts. Your using a basic sales technique here its so crude its fucking laughable. How many times does a person need to use the words 'clearly' and 'agree' in one sentence?

i totally accept the level of material poverty and maybe was too glib

here you conceed a point to try and look fair. You could have made this point in your intial reply.But it took two posts to do so in the specific context above

but my point was IF we wish to unite the 40 million or so w/c people in this country it will not be done around poverty

here you use political rhetoric and contradict your earlier statment where you appear to agree with me.

you see this is you making the issue abstract. Instaed of acknowledging peoples poverty you are more interested abstracting there problems into rhetoric

.. but around power and control .. sometimes i feel you are looking for a row instead of finding political solutions which is my game

Here you make your final non-point, with the usual rhetorical flourish at the end. You also.. use it.. to ..say .. that.. you.. are .. interested..in..political..solutions.. while i am playing some sort of game.. why all the ..s all the time?

You see i was indulging in political disscussion on this board and injecting a bit of life into the disscussion. I raised valid points with regards to your posts.You see you knew there was no way i would agree with your rhetoric based response. So now , for the simple crime of not agreeing with you i am not apparently interested in finding political solutions!


You see, as i said before your a consumate politician. Welldone you. Anyone with there own brain ( which given urbans herd mentality these days is not very likely ) who looked at your post and could understand political language, and basic sales can see and the problems with it. Your not interested in political solutions only in youself.

This is why we dont agree on most things as i form my views from a wide range of academic and research sources in the context of people i know and there interpretation of there circumstances. You post 'easy' political rhetoric with a bit of sales to impress urbanites. You then appear to not understand the 'political language' you have used.

I hate john crudass and i fucking hate salespeople.

 

[tbaldwin]

Introduction to durrutis encyclopedia revolutionica courtesy of brassic. I see a fresh start for the unorthodox left here.

 

[durruti02]

And the point of this statement is..Oh yes the point was to make it appear that you 'dont get me ' with a dash of mild humour in a way which makes it look like your , honest and a genuinly perplexed injured party

No you presume to much. Go back and read the posts. Your using a basic sales technique here its so crude its fucking laughable. How many times does a person need to use the words 'clearly' and 'agree' in one sentence?

here you conceed a point to try and look fair. You could have made this point in your intial reply.But it took two posts to do so in the specific context above

here you use political rhetoric and contradict your earlier statment where you appear to agree with me.

you see this is you making the issue abstract. Instaed of acknowledging peoples poverty you are more interested abstracting there problems into rhetoric

Here you make your final non-point, with the usual rhetorical flourish at the end. You also.. use it.. to ..say .. that.. you.. are .. interested..in..political..solutions.. while i am playing some sort of game.. why all the ..s all the time?

You see i was indulging in political disscussion on this board and injecting a bit of life into the disscussion. I raised valid points with regards to your posts.You see you knew there was no way i would agree with your rhetoric based response. So now , for the simple crime of not agreeing with you i am not apparently interested in finding political solutions!

You see, as i said before your a consumate politician. Welldone you. Anyone with there own brain ( which given urbans herd mentality these days is not very likely ) who looked at your post and could understand political language, and basic sales can see and the problems with it. Your not interested in political solutions only in youself.

This is why we dont agree on most things as i form my views from a wide range of academic and research sources in the context of people i know and there interpretation of there circumstances. You post 'easy' political rhetoric with a bit of sales to impress urbanites. You then appear to not understand the 'political language' you have used.

I hate john crudass and i fucking hate salespeople.

i think you hate most people .. you picture of me is laughable .. everything, opinions, what i am trying to do, the way i argue, you ascribe to me is simply wrong and unrecognisable to me and anyone who knows me .. i am way more simple

btw what is it you do in the world to sort things out?

 

[brasicritique]

brassic sometimes you give a very strong impression of just shit stirring

oh look its 'one for the Mods' Yeah i have not addressed any points or raised any valid points in response to your posts. Really

let me ask you a question how many people are in the w/c and lower middle class and how many people are in what you call poverty?

Let me ask you a question ,seeing as your not interested in them anyway why ask such a question? The 'class based ' language you are using is dead language. I only use the word 'class' for the benefit of you lot and even then if anyone uses the words 'middle class' and 'urbanites' in the same sentence its punishable by death

 

[brasicritique]

i think you hate most people .. you picture of me is laughable .. everything, opinions, what i am trying to do, the way i argue, you ascribe to me is simply wrong and unrecognisable to me and anyone who knows me .. i am way more simple

btw what is it you do in the world to sort things out?

yeh.. relly..

btw.. the.. best.. sales.. people.. always.. keep.. it.. simple..simple..

 

[durruti02]

yeh.. relly..

yes really .. sorry hey maybe i should have been a salesperson .. i could have made lots of money you really think i am good at it?

 

[brasicritique]

Introduction to durrutis encyclopedia revolutionica courtesy of brassic. I see a fresh start for the unorthodox left here.

Language balders language

 

[brasicritique]

yes really .. sorry hey maybe i should have been a salesperson .. i could have made lots of money you really think i am good at it?

yes its all a joke i mean Orwell never wrote essays on political language , and i mean linguists like chomskey have never written about it . Or maybe they were car salesmen.

 

[butchersapron]

yeh.. relly..

btw.. the.. best.. sales.. people.. always.. keep.. it.. simple..simple..

There's simple and there's simple

 

[butchersapron]

yes its all a joke i mean Orwell never wrote essays on political language , and i mean linguists like chomskey have never written about it . Or maybe they were car salesmen.

Has chomsky, a linguist, ever written about it?

 

[Spion]

Durutti, i have been thinking for while now, you should write a book or at the very least a pamphlet on your ideas, etc, you have some quite profound and fully formed thoeries, praxis,

I'll write it for him. It's a very short book.

Chapter One - Theory

We need to ask working class people what they want and then say exactly the same back to them. That way we'll be ever so popular.

Chapter Two - Praxis

We went and asked people what they thought about immigration and they told us they didn't like it. Now we think the same thing and we're set to be ever so popular.

Chapter Three - Conclusion

Well, it turns out we're not very popular after all. But, it's totally not true and a spiteful thing to say that no-one gives a shit about our stance on immigration because it's indistinguishable from what the mainstream parties already say. I blame the left, it's all their fault with their "Give British jobs back to the Muslims" placards. I hate them, I hate them, I hate them.

 

[tbaldwin]

Spion.
You want to keep repeating the mistakes the Left has been making for decades. At least durruti shows signs of wanting to know why when the world is in such a shit shape, the Left in the UK has little impact.

 

[durruti02]

Let me ask you a question ,seeing as your not interested in them anyway why ask such a question? The 'class based ' language you are using is dead language. I only use the word 'class' for the benefit of you lot and even then if anyone uses the words 'middle class' and 'urbanites' in the same sentence its punishable by death

yyou may very well be right .. but for now well instead of shit stirring start a thread and make some suggestions .. ok mr negative? you may convince me

 

[durruti02]

I'll write it for him. It's a very short book.

Chapter One - Theory

We need to ask working class people what they want and then say exactly the same back to them. That way we'll be ever so popular.

Chapter Two - Praxis

We went and asked people what they thought about immigration and they told us they didn't like it. Now we think the same thing and we're set to be ever so popular.

Chapter Three - Conclusion

Well, it turns out we're not very popular after all. But, it's totally not true and a spiteful thing to say that no-one gives a shit about our stance on immigration because it's indistinguishable from what the mainstream parties already say. I blame the left, it's all their fault with their "Give British jobs back to the Muslims" placards. I hate them, I hate them, I hate them.

you had a bad day? lol you are so wide of the mark it is embaressing

 

[TremulousTetra]

old chestnut! .. the swp essentially .. but thru the last decades the IMG/SO etc etc .. the wrp/militant have essentially the same ideology but were more w/c .. and i add in 90% of the @s who while saying they are against power behave like they constantly know best ..

can't both be right. Either you are lying, or SW is lying, and involved in one of the biggest conspiracies the tiny insignificant left in Britain has ever seen.

www.ResistanceMP3.org.uk
Socialism from Below
Sally Campbell 2008 < - Length: 72 minutes
Can The Working Class Change The World
Simon Basketter 2003 < - Length: 33 minutes
How Do Ideas Change
Judith Orr 2003 < - Length: 33 minutes
Does Social Change Have To Be Violent
Helen Salmon 2003 < - Length: 42 - 21 minutes
Can the Working Class be a Force for Change in the Global South
Esme Choonara 2007
Does Social Change Have to be Violent
Helen Salmon 2007
What are the prospects for change in the US
Gary Younge 2008 < - Length: 70 minutes
Can Ordinary People Change The World
Estelle Cooch 2008 < - Length: 63 minutes
.................................
But in your own words is the solution to the problem I've 1917.

i think you know what i mean .. i mean you can have a unreal revolution based on those who have nothing, rising up, but being lead and ultimately ruled by another elite .. e.g russia 1917

if and when the majority ( i am referring to) decide on revolution they will not allow for this .. SNIP ..

That is precisely what we are banking on. That is the solution to the problem of 1917, state capitalism, the critique of which SW was built on.

Files with the keyword state capitalism:

State Capitalism
- Part 2 Tony Cliff < - Length: 36 + 25 +8 minutes

US, Japan, Germany and State Capitalism
Kostas Cossis 1992

State Capitalism in Crisis
Chris Harman 1987

State Capitalism
John Molineux 2004

State Capitalism and Russia Under Stalin
Sean Vernell 2006

The theory of state capitalism
Ben Selwyn 2008 < - Length: 71 minutes

www.ResistanceMP3.org.uk

 

[brasicritique]

Has chomsky, a linguist, ever written about it?

Why dont you ask duruti2. I have pointed out how Duruti2 uses language the same way a modern day sound bite politician does. It is quite clear that duruti2 does not give a fuck about poverty in the uk. And judging by your inane posts neither do you. BOTH OF YOU have failed to address the valid points i have raised, instaed prefering to post the usual unfounded acusations. I am now a labeled a 'shit stirrer' for raising valid questions none of you want to address. But then you post for the sake of the urban gallery. Take a bow you scourge of ike you

 

[brasicritique]

yyou may very well be right .. but for now well instead of shit stirring start a thread and make some suggestions .. ok mr negative? you may convince me

You are a truely arrogant political wannabee of staggering proportions. You do nt make any suggestions EVER . What you do is hide behind rethoric. End of story. I find it interesting how you take a daily mail / middle class persepctive on UK poverty and then Butcthers backs you up instaed of questioning the position that you hav ewith regards to this issue. This Second time you have accused me of shit stirring, and yet again you have ignored the valid points i have raised why is that why have you been allowed to to suggest that there is no poverty in the UK and that everbody is housed Its funny how butchers seems to have totally ignored you glib rethoric based politik

oh LOOK Duruti2 is using .. why?

 

[brasicritique]

Spion.
You want to keep repeating the mistakes the Left has been making for decades. At least durruti shows signs of wanting to know why when the world is in such a shit shape, the Left in the UK has little impact.

The first part of your post may have be true , and it is a view i held until i came across this thread where Duruti has basically been well and shown for the political ex swapie wannabee he is. It is quite obviosu why the UK left is in shit shape. It has basically taken a materialistic / relativist perspective on poverty. And as all of us lumpens are all rich now with TVs and Mobile phones we are all content and happy

 

[durruti02]

You are a truely arrogant political wannabee of staggering proportions. You do nt make any suggestions EVER . What you do is hide behind rethoric. End of story. I find it interesting how you take a daily mail / middle class persepctive on UK poverty and then Butcthers backs you up instaed of questioning the position that you hav ewith regards to this issue. This Second time you have accused me of shit stirring, and yet again you have ignored the valid points i have raised why is that why have you been allowed to to suggest that there is no poverty in the UK and that everbody is housed Its funny how butchers seems to have totally ignored you glib rethoric based politik

oh LOOK Duruti2 is using .. why?

oh shut up for gods sake .. you talking shite IF you have anything positive to say IF you do anything except be negative on here PLEASE PLEASE tell us .. otherwise go and find something better to do ..

( p.s. i agreed with most of your point you donut .. and you have entirely missed the rest of the point of the OP AND helped derail what was an interesting thread ..cheers )

 

[brasicritique]

oh shut up for gods sake .. you talking shite IF you have anything positive to say IF you do anything except be negative on here PLEASE PLEASE tell us .. otherwise go and find something better to do ..

It is fairly obvious that my post was positive and why they are positive as in this instance they are revealing how politcal language and rethoric work and how it is constrcuted to obscure the facts as they stand and cloud the issue. Yet again we can how you do this above where you repeat the same words and do so in caps..


you see you say nothing and post rethoric. As i have said anyone familiar with the use/abuse of political language or how rethoric works would be able to spot that.

( p.s. i agreed with most of your point you donut)

Lie one

.. and you have entirely missed the rest of the point of the OP

Lie two

AND helped derail what was an interesting thread ..cheers )

Lie three.


I have not derailed the thread. You have . I responded to your OP . I raised points with regards to your OP . You have not responded to any of them. It is clear for EVERYONE TO SEE you do not agree with me or 'most of my point' as you make clear earlier. Unless people agree with you you deeem them as negative. or a shit stirrer. This exposes the lie that you are into 'discussion' and reveals you are really into 'dictat'. I took you apart beacuse your not as good as you think you are , and are the worst type of hypocrite. You see fred the shred could not give a shit about poverty in the uk. You post all these threads and adopt a 'right on' attitude yet when it comes to poverty in the uk , you adopt a daily mail fred shred perspective. That is IMO incongurent. Its as clear as day light for all to see on this thread.

 

[durruti02]

sorry brassic i do not know waht you wrote above .. you have finally gone on ignore .. if you want to be in any way usefull politically you would be a million times less of a wind up and maybe post something positive .. that after so many times of asking you continually refuse to do makes me assume you are simply a wind up