Class struggle is not politically correct ..

[durruti02]

the absurd statements by some SW type lefties on the construction dispute makes me think that they think that class struggle must be politcially correct .. this is such a basic error and one replicated throughout the liberal left .. and further it is disasterous as it drives people into the arms of those who will decitfully will welcome them ..

people are not perfect, most people are just gettibg by and have been driven away from politics deliberately by the politicians and ignorently by the left

but what people do understand is solidarity in way the left do not .. bullshit and facile statements of internationalism etc can not cover up from the simple fact that any left worth its salt support workers in struggle for their rights

 

[butchersapron]

This is the thing, some people really do expect the w/c to be some perfectly formed group with perfectly correct politics (no sexism, no racism etc) before getting involved in any struggle - despite their own dogma explicitly arguing that it's through struggle that peoples attitudes are changed. You get the sense that for a few people this is their first glimpse of the w/c in all it's rowdy un-pc glory and they don't like what they're seeing one bit. (and you can bet your last dollar there were french workers arguing for job protection yesterdy on that perfect black thursday).

It's essential to reject the idea that nothing can happen until white workers are no longer racist. I don't know what anybody thinks the Russian workers in 1917 were. They were sexist. They were nationalist. A lot of them were under the thumb of the church. But they made a goddamn revolution that began to change them. Whether there's a social explosion or not doesn't depend on any formal attitudes or supporting this particular organisation or that particular organisation.

The late great Marty Glaberman

 

[Fedayn]

the absurd statements by some SW type lefties on the construction dispute makes me think that they think that class struggle must be politcially correct .. this is such a basic error and one replicated throughout the liberal left .. and further it is disasterous as it drives people into the arms of those who will decitfully will welcome them ..

people are not perfect, most people are just getting by and have been driven away from politics deliberately by the politicians and ignorently by the left

but what people do understand is solidarity in way the left do not .. bullshit and facile statements of internationalism etc can not cover up from the simple fact that any left worth its salt support workers in struggle for their rights

The SWP have missed the point made by numerous strikers in Lincolnshire too. One fella, with agreement from others, made it clear it wasn't about hating foreign workers or anything of the sort. It was about a company tearing up agreements, ignoring agreed terms and conditions. It would be the same action if those employed were all unemployed labour from London.


One of the things that I was 'taught' in the Militant is that people don't become politically perfectly, to words 'You don't find perfectly rounded out revolutionaries on the streets'. People get active and angry where they are not where some educated Spart type hopes they are. I wonder what some of todays SWP would make of attitudes amongst many in mining communities in regards to womens and gay equality back in 1984?!?! The strike changed alot of people, not on the first fucking day though!

 

[frogwoman]

quite. the SWP's attitude to this is fucking hopeless ...

 

[articul8]

I wonder what some of todays SWP would make of attitudes amongst many in mining communities in regards to womens and gay equality back in 1984?!?! The strike changed alot of people, not on the first fucking day though!

Don't disagree with what you say re this dispute, but you'd admit there can be the converse mistake - refusing to take a stand against prejudices because the existing consciousness of workers would resist such a stand?

Militant's attitude to gay rights wasn't exactly in the vanguard...

 

[bluestreak]

Pretty much agree with everything on this thread.

 

[Spion]

So, what should a leftist support here. What should they not support:

a) British jobs for British workers
b) fair access to jobs

?

 

[frogwoman]

Don't disagree with what you say re this dispute, but you'd admit there can be the converse mistake - refusing to take a stand against prejudices because the existing consciousness of workers would resist such a stand?

Militant's attitude to gay rights wasn't exactly in the vanguard...

this as well.

 

[Xipe Totec]

This is the thing, some people really do expect the w/c to be some perfectly formed group with perfectly correct politics (no sexism, no racism etc) before getting involved in any struggle - despite their own dogma explicitly arguing that it's through struggle that peoples attitudes are changed. You get the sense that for a few people this is their first glimpse of the w/c in all it's rowdy un-pc glory and they don't like what they're seeing one bit. (and you can bet your last dollar there were french workers arguing for job protection yesterdy on that perfect black thursday).

its perfectly valid to identify and criticise reactionary views and behaviour of the working class; debate will quickly bog down if you imply people who do so are snobs...

its certainly important to view w/c and allied groups 'warts n all', and to recognise that it will often be necessary to challenge them.

its a messy business i guess...

 

[Xipe Totec]

So, what should a leftist support here. What should they not support:

a) British jobs for British workers
b) fair access to jobs

?

c) global uprising of the international proletariat against their 1st world oppressors

 

[Fedayn]

Don't disagree with what you say re this dispute, but you'd admit there can be the converse mistake - refusing to take a stand against prejudices because the existing consciousness of workers would resist such a stand?

No one refused to take a stand. The active support of 'Lesbians and gays support ther miners' certainly helped. But patient explanation worked. The same should be the case here. The SP has been on some of the picket lines. The reports from them seems at odds with the simplistic reports in the news

Militant's attitude to gay rights wasn't exactly in the vanguard...

True, but they also helped break down these prejudices.

 

[toblerone3]

c) global uprising of the international proletariat against their 1st world oppressors

The international proletariat doesn't really exist as a class. What would be needed for it to form is much more of this kind of international labour contracting/economic migration not less.

Then, perhaps, an awareness of a common international W/C interest could emerge. At the moment the internationalised hegemonic ruling class is exploiting differences in nationally-based working classes.

Historically migration has been the most powerful equaliser of the cost of factors of production.

 

[TremulousTetra]

the absurd statements by some SW type lefties on the construction dispute makes me think that they think that class struggle must be politcially correct .. this is such a basic error and one replicated throughout the liberal left .. and further it is disasterous as it drives people into the arms of those who will decitfully will welcome them ..

people are not perfect, most people are just gettibg by and have been driven away from politics deliberately by the politicians and ignorently by the left

but what people do understand is solidarity in way the left do not .. bullshit and facile statements of internationalism etc can not cover up from the simple fact that any left worth its salt support workers in struggle for their rights

I cannot understand why for 'lefties' on here every topic on this form turns into bash SW propaganda.

Seem to remember the SW has always argued you join arms with the racist, sexits, etc on the picket line, in other words, the fact is that the working class is not unanimously politically correct is not a barrier to unity. So you need to be specific, what comments are you talking about? Otherwise you gong to look like you're talking shit.

Nationalism is not solution, as these none SW types clearly explained why.

Mosty of those who walked out appeared to be wearing flash jackets with slogans like 'british jobs for british workers' rather than 'british rates for all workers' or something like that - i've no idea if they were work provided or union provided, but there was a least one unison steward arguing along the lines of attacking foreign workers rather than employers.

It's not the laws, it's the relentless search to squeeze the workers for more profit that's the problem, that's what's behind the law.

I've bolded the key bit.

As long as the issue is framed in a nationalist manner, then solutions posed will be nationalised ones (e.g. "British jobs for British workers") which of course are no solution at all as they miss the cause of the problem, which as Butchers pointed out above is the relentless drive by the bosses to get more labour for less cost. This is the essence of the class struggle and all the guff about nationality, cultural definitions of class and the whole raft of distractionary bollocks is exactly what they want.

 

[Fedayn]

Short article on the strike from the Socialist Party. The bit in bold would seem to indicate it's not the simplistic dispute that the News and some Union leaders seem to be claiming.

Construction workers strike spreads

Thousands of construction workers in oil refineries and other major
utilities sites are on strike.

There were mass meetings in the Lindsey and Conoco refinery sites in
Yorkshire and Lincolnshire today and Socialist Party members were well
received with 18 copies of the Socialist sold.

The main issue is not that "foreign" workers are being brought in by
the employers, as reported in the media, but that there are thousands
of unemployed construction workers.

The Socialist Party is raising the demand that any worker should be
part of the national engineering construction agreements that cover
the wages and conditions on the sites.

We are also calling for an unemployment registrar to be set up under
union control that can supply labour to the sites when that is needed.

The reason for the strikes is that the employers have awarded the
contracts to an Italian firm that has brought in labour which is not
part of the national agreements.

A six-strong strike committee has been set up with a Socialist Party
member on the committee. At the time of writing the strikes are
spreading like wild fire according to the BBC, currently covering
something like sixteen sites from Scotland to Wales and from Northern
Ireland to Merseyside.

 

[treelover]

Confront the fascists on strike. Lets get a demo together and force the racists pickets away from the gates. No borders! All workers from around the world welcome here!

irish tony LUAF

are they mad?,

 

[XerxesVargas]

The issue that confuses me in all this is the "why" hasn't been made clear. That is why would this company get workers in from Italy and Portugal? If its not about undercutting wages and conditions then it really doesn't make sense. Why would you bus in foreign workers, from wherever, if it wasn't about getting them in cheap?

 

[toblerone3]

The issue that confuses me in all this is the "why" hasn't been made clear. That is why would this company get workers in from Italy and Portugal? If its not about undercutting wages and conditions then it really doesn't make sense. Why would you bus in foreign workers, from wherever, if it wasn't about getting them in cheap?

Some accounting reason, something to do with tax or National Insurance rules.

 

[nightbreed]

The SWP have missed the point made by numerous strikers in Lincolnshire too. One fella, with agreement from others, made it clear it wasn't about hating foreign workers or anything of the sort. It was about a company tearing up agreements, ignoring agreed terms and conditions. It would be the same action if those employed were all unemployed labour from London.


One of the things that I was 'taught' in the Militant is that people don't become politically perfectly, to words 'You don't find perfectly rounded out revolutionaries on the streets'. People get active and angry where they are not where some educated Spart type hopes they are. I wonder what some of todays SWP would make of attitudes amongst many in mining communities in regards to womens and gay equality back in 1984?!?! The strike changed alot of people, not on the first fucking day though!

So true.

 

[chilango]

The point is not about whether the wc is pc or not.

It is whether the tactics and strategy employed in any given dispute are a) targetting the cause of the specific problem, b) could result in a victory and c) are steps towards a better society.

Let's remember one thing that is almost always forgotten in debates about class here...

The Left focusses on the working class because the working class is the class with the power and interest to radically change society. not because it is better or right or any other moralistic stance you careto throw in.

I am for the abolition of the working class ultimately, not its perpetuation.

 

[becky p]

The point is not about whether the wc is pc or not.

It is whether the tactics and strategy employed in any given dispute are a) targetting the cause of the specific problem, b) could result in a victory and c) are steps towards a better society.

Let's remember one thing that is almost always forgotten in debates about class here...

The Left focusses on the working class because the working class is the class with the power and interest to radically change society. not because it is better or right or any other moralistic stance you careto throw in.

I am for the abolition of the working class ultimately, not its perpetuation.

Problem with this is a) Is the cause foreign workers taking jobs or international capitalism or both. Looks like both to me but to some people anybody campaigning against foreign workers being shipped over must be xenophobic. That seems a bit idiotic to me, but those kind of people seem intent on pushing as many people as possible into the arms of the BNP.

 

[chilango]

Problem with this is a) Is the cause foreign workers taking jobs or international capitalism or both. Looks like both to me but to some people anybody campaigning against foreign workers being shipped over must be xenophobic. That seems a bit idiotic to me, but those kind of people seem intent on pushing as many people as possible into the arms of the BNP.

its NOT foreign workers taking jobs. Thats the whole fecking problem. Its not like an Italian workers co-op sat in the canteen in Torino decide to up sticks and nick British jobs is it?

Its the fecking bosses!!

...and the mechanisms they build to keep us divided whilst continuing to rake in the profits.

the more we forget this the more this kind of thing will happen.

 

[articul8]

It's a classic case of a romaniticised image of the working class flipping over into its opposite - an impression that it's always of danger of being won over lock, stock and barrel to the most stupid reactionary politics. In both cases, they refuse see how working class communities react on their own terms, not in the neat categories of left stereotypes.

The idea that it is about race is plain daft. Of course there are elements of the dispute that can be given a nationalistic spin - and the BNP will be trying to muscle in - but it's insulting to the intelligence of so many strikers to suggest that their all nothing more than the stooges of some Daily Mail fantasy of keeping out Johnny Foreigner.

It's important to get to the route causes: why are the employers finding it preferable to bring in workers on short-term contractors from abroad rather then employ UK workers? Why is the government prepared to let UK construction workers go without jobs when we have a housing crisis? Why, given the strength of feeling, did the official union structures prove so inert to the interests of the workers that they took wildcat action etc.etc...

 

[nino_savatte]

its NOT foreign workers taking jobs. Thats the whole fecking problem. Its not like an Italian workers co-op sat in the canteen in Torino decide to up sticks and nick British jobs is it?

Its the fecking bosses!!

...and the mechanisms they build to keep us divided whilst continuing to rake in the profits.

the more we forget this the more this kind of thing will happen.

Exactly and their anger should be directed at the bosses.

I noticed today's Daily Mail frontpage is full of support for the strikers. Now when the miners were on strike in the 80's, the Mail couldn't wait to tear them to shreds.

 

[Xipe Totec]

The point is not about whether the wc is pc or not.

It is whether the tactics and strategy employed in any given dispute are a) targetting the cause of the specific problem, b) could result in a victory and c) are steps towards a better society.

Let's remember one thing that is almost always forgotten in debates about class here...

The Left focusses on the working class because the working class is the class with the power and interest to radically change society. not because it is better or right or any other moralistic stance you careto throw in.

I am for the abolition of the working class ultimately, not its perpetuation.

good point.

another reason why the struggle is not pc is because the term 'political correctness' is used solely by right-wing simpletons

 

[durruti02]

The point is not about whether the wc is pc or not.

It is whether the tactics and strategy employed in any given dispute are a) targetting the cause of the specific problem, b) could result in a victory and c) are steps towards a better society.

Let's remember one thing that is almost always forgotten in debates about class here...

The Left focusses on the working class because the working class is the class with the power and interest to radically change society. not because it is better or right or any other moralistic stance you careto throw in.

I am for the abolition of the working class ultimately, not its perpetuation.

but real life does NOT go a then b then c usually! and not like that any way ..

the fact is that workers generally having been screwed do NOT come to the table with demands for workers councils etc .. they will demand jobs/wages/better conditions for THEM ( this is btw the basis of trade unionism )

as socialists you do NOT pick and choose in a situation like this

1) to not support people in struggle is simply wrong - you cut yourself off, you do not give your ideas an airing etc etc

2) you let in the bnp

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Of course, if they're muslims, fuck 'em.

 

[rioted]

Class struggle exists. But it is not the only field of struggle. There are some things at least as important as economics.

 

[Idaho]

So, what should a leftist support here. What should they not support:

a) British jobs for British workers
b) fair access to jobs

?

It's the fundamental question. I don't have a good answer beyond them being entitled to collectively demand whatever they collectively agree to.

Or they could just:

c) global uprising of the international proletariat against their 1st world oppressors

lulz...

 

[chilango]

but real life does NOT go a then b then c usually! and not like that any way ..

the fact is that workers generally having been screwed do NOT come to the table with demands for workers councils etc .. they will demand jobs/wages/better conditions for THEM ( this is btw the basis of trade unionism )

as socialists you do NOT pick and choose in a situation like this

1) to not support people in struggle is simply wrong - you cut yourself off, you do not give your ideas an airing etc etc

2) you let in the bnp

to a point.

note that i have not anywhere said that i do not support the strike.

however, my support or not is largely irrelevant.

what is important, and real is the discussions i have with my workmates daily on precisely these issues.

 

[TremulousTetra]

The point is not about whether the wc is pc or not.

It is whether the tactics and strategy employed in any given dispute are a) targetting the cause of the specific problem, b) could result in a victory and c) are steps towards a better society.

Let's remember one thing that is almost always forgotten in debates about class here...

The Left focusses on the working class because the working class is the class with the power and interest to radically change society. not because it is better or right or any other moralistic stance you careto throw in.

I am for the abolition of the working class ultimately, not its perpetuation.

good post!