Cameron launches "Big Society"

[Pickman's model]

Free market sounds fine to me. Let people do what they fucking want instead of trying to control it all the time.

free market = profit. public services generally don't make a profit. how would you suggest making a profit out of a library service?

 

[Blagsta]

Jesus fucking wept are you so surrounded by people who think exactly the same as you that it don't occur to you that other people may not?

Problem is Edie, you don't know what a "free market" is.

 

[Blagsta]

Less taking money off people under threat of imprisonment = inherently a good thing in my book.

Why is spending less of other people's money on someone else an "attack" on that person or group of people?

Giles..

What?

 

[The39thStep]

Follwers of "The Thick of It" will recall that a plot around some bullshit called "The 4th Sector" was a major in theme in the last series. The similarities with "The Big Society" are a bit too much. Satire isn't really satire at all sometimes, just reportage.

One of the Coalition said the third sector should be renamed the first sector

 

[The39thStep]

free market = profit. public services generally don't make a profit. how would you suggest making a profit out of a library service?

What is your performance on collecting library fines?

 

[Pickman's model]

What is your performance on collecting library fines?

i'm good at it

but if you think you can fund a library service off fines, you've another think coming.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You think they do, but you're wrong if you reckon volunteering and compassion is the reserve of the left. What I do means fuck all, I could just as easy point to a communist that don't work OR volunteer and that would mean fuck all too.

Learn to read.
I haven't said that volunteering and compassion is[sic] the "reserve of the left". In fact no-one on this thread has done so. What I actually said was that volunteering is quite prevalent among people of the left that I know and, as someone else mentioned, altruism is part of most left ideologies.

Next time, rather than spouting off and making yourself look ignorant, perhaps you could read the words on the screen, rather than listening to the words in your head?

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Problem is Edie, you don't know what a "free market" is.

Does a free market actually exist anywhere in the world?

 

[ViolentPanda]

spot on (as per). i've always seen altruism at the heart of all progressive politics - certainly mine, and practically every lefty I know.

Which proves once again that tbaldwin, Mr. "self-interest is what motivates people on the left", is neither progressive or a lefty.
Me, I can't see how any society, of whatever political stripe, that wishes to be considered "civilised" can disassociate itself from altruism. Altruistic behaviour is one of the fundamental blocks on which "the social" is built, IMHO. Mutual aid without thought of reward, for the good of all.

 

[ViolentPanda]

We should spawn another thread what do you do in your community?

Surely what you do in your community is irrelevant. It's what you do for your community that might be worth discussing, as would be why you do it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Does a free market actually exist anywhere in the world?

Only in the vastness of space that exists between the ears of most right-wing economists.

 

[Pickman's model]

there's no such thing as a free market

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm impressed - genuinely.
So why do you feel the need to talk bollocks about others and spout lazy assumtions about them, as you have done here? I mean - you are willing to put yourself out for other folk in real live (I just hope you don't judge who you work with in the way you do in this site...) so I guess you are a reasonable and decent caring human being in that real life so why do you feel the need to make daft generalisations about people you clearly know so little about online? Do you think the anonimity and physical distance (plus a dose of ignorance - not necessarily your fault but that still what it comes down too...) makes it a bit too easy to act like an arse towards other more 'distant' folk?

Personally, I'm tied up with trying do do far to many practical things mostly for individuals - like the old lass upstairs from me and other neighbours in an attempt to cover for all the gaps these folk are facing in the wake of the very real effects and political realities that are the result of politicians 'big ideas' (new labour/tories or a local liberal council - its all the same... basic carer coverage for example, diy, even form filling for folk to get the benefits they should get after 50 odd years working) to be able to do much in the way of 'bring and buys'. But we each do our own. That and working 70+ hours a week in an attempt to keep a roof over my parents and sisters heads (all hard working folk - ironically a working class 'tory' in the case of my sis - who have been screwed buy the economic downturn despite best efforts).

My political difference with you is I do not want my older neighbours relying merely on the 'goodwill' of others rather than a proper support system. 'Goodwill' and 'bring and buys'are simply not enough. I am happy to discuss such differences with you but if you simply resort to dumb stereotypes you will simply get them thrown back in you face.

You really should stop making lazy and ignorant comments about other folk as, I would hope, you would avoid doing in real life Edie.

On the benefits front, I worked out a neat little trick for convincing my older neighbours (and older relatives even) to claim what they were entitled to.
You take along a calculator, ask them whether they received an average wage during the years they (or their husband) worked, then multiply the current average wage (because in effect it'll have roughly the same purchasing power as the average wage in previous years) by however many years they and/or their spouse worked. Divide the total by 3. The result is roughly, in real terms, what the state has had off them during their years of employment. Faced with this figure (it's usually a biggie) even the most reticent person decides that, if you'll help them fill out the form, the bugger "good will", they want what they're entitled to!

 

[dennisr]

On the benefits front, I worked out a neat little trick for convincing my older neighbours (and older relatives even) to claim what they were entitled to.
You take along a calculator, ask them whether they received an average wage during the years they (or their husband) worked, then multiply the current average wage (because in effect it'll have roughly the same purchasing power as the average wage in previous years) by however many years they and/or their spouse worked. Divide the total by 3. The result is roughly, in real terms, what the state has had off them during their years of employment. Faced with this figure (it's usually a biggie) even the most reticent person decides that, if you'll help them fill out the form, the bugger "good will", they want what they're entitled to!

ha - I should try that - that's the irony isn't it? - folk often don't see that they should be entitled to certain basic things - especially after they have been putting in for decades. They sometimes mistake this for the - fully understandable - desire to remain independent and not wanting to feel they are a 'burden'.

 

[_angel_]

That disgusting word 'hand out' is to blame for that. That and the relentless negative media coverage and government campaigns about "scroungers" and "benefit thieves". Hardly surprising that people would feel put off from claiming stuff.
What Giles doesn't seem to get is that people have paid their taxes in and should get something back, it's not just him that is paying.

At the moment, pensions don't seem to get classed as 'benefits' in public mind, but I think by the time I'm that age it will have changed and the culture of "they can work so they should" will prevail until people drop, basically.

 

[Proper Tidy]

What Giles doesn't seem to get is that people have paid their taxes in and should get something back, it's not just him that is paying.

Giles also appears to believe that the state has no right to spend 'other people's money', yet apparently hasn't questioned how they obtained that money in the first place.

 

[Blagsta]

Does a free market actually exist anywhere in the world?

Of course not. Which is why I usually put in it quote marks.

 

[TruXta]

Learn to read.
I haven't said that volunteering and compassion is[sic] the "reserve of the left". In fact no-one on this thread has done so. What I actually said was that volunteering is quite prevalent among people of the left that I know and, as someone else mentioned, altruism is part of most left ideologies.

Next time, rather than spouting off and making yourself look ignorant, perhaps you could read the words on the screen, rather than listening to the words in your head?

While I'm sure that is true, there's also research that shows that people who are culturally/politically individualistic are more likely to give to and volunteer for charitable causes, GIVEN that these causes are value-congruent with the person showing altruistic behaviour (REF). In other words, (North American) individualists, who are more likely to be to the right politically, tend to donate more to individualist-congruent causes than to collectivist-congruent causes.

Don't know if it holds for collectivist causes and culturally collectivist people as well. Also not sure if the absolute levels of altruism (narrowly defined as charitable giving and volunteering) differ betwen left- and right-leaning bods.

 

[sheothebudworths]

I'd fucking much rather my kids school were just given the money and left to run the school as the teachers see fit. Same with the hospitals. Just fuck off all the managers and let the doctors run it. But every time shit like this gets suggested people on the left just pop up with all this bullshit about how UNFAIR it would be, and how normal working people couldn't possibly be educated enough to run a fucking library.

And you assume that, for eg, the teachers at your kids school would prefer that too?

 

[Edie]

ha - I should try that - that's the irony isn't it? - folk often don't see that they should be entitled to certain basic things - especially after they have been putting in for decades. They sometimes mistake this for the - fully understandable - desire to remain independent and not wanting to feel they are a 'burden'.

Urg. Entitlement. You should be admiring the older generation for not wanting to be a burden. They've got the right attitude, not like it is now where a lot of people never think twice and just reckon there owed a living. I mean no offense, cos he's a lovely bloke, but look at DotCom. He's obviously a well clever young bloke in his twenties, good education and fit and all the rest, could probably do pretty much whatever he wanted. Yet he don't want, so he has what seems like pretty long times on the dole. He obviously thinks he's entitled to do that.

You pay in to protect those who fall through the net and genuinely need help. You pay for the NHS so that there aren't people who are dying for lack of a doctor, and in case you become seriously ill. If you don't NEED the help, or your don't NEED hospital treatment that doesn't mean your 'entitled' to your 'share' of the money you paid in. That's just not how it's meant to work

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah well politicians are mostly a load of thieving cunts anyway. I just wanna see the day when they back the fuck off, stop taxing us to shit and leave us to sort our own stuff out. I'd fucking much rather my kids school were just given the money and left to run the school as the teachers see fit. Same with the hospitals. Just fuck off all the managers and let the doctors run it. But every time shit like this gets suggested people on the left just pop up with all this bullshit about how UNFAIR it would be, and how normal working people couldn't possibly be educated enough to run a fucking library. Turns out most of them just look after them and theirs anyway.

I'd rather rely on my neighbours than the fucking system but there you go.

so you think teachers and doctors do things most people can't do but somehow people who specialise in the provision of information are different and anyone can do their job?

 

[sleaterkinney]

nah, that shit has been tried in the olden days. Kids up chimneys and black people on slave blocks. You want a return to that?

So has centralised planning and a command economy, that really didn't work out.

 

[Pickman's model]

So has centralised planning and a command economy, that really didn't work out.

why not? britain won the first world war, didn't it?

 

[DotCommunist]

circumstances and tech weren't up to it. Still, the cuban literacy and lack of child malnutrition look pretty good compared to the US nieghbour, richest nation in the world. Oh how silent the CIA wannabes are on that front.

 

[sleaterkinney]

why not? britain won the first world war, didn't it?

War economies don't count.

circumstances and tech weren't up to it. Still, the cuban literacy and lack of child malnutrition look pretty good compared to the US nieghbour, richest nation in the world. Oh how silent the CIA wannabes are on that front.

If I had a totalitarian state I'd make sure the stats were good too.

 

[sheothebudworths]

circumstances and tech weren't up to it. Still, the cuban literacy and lack of child malnutrition look pretty good compared to the US nieghbour, richest nation in the world. Oh how silent the CIA wannabes are on that front.

Not forgetting Kerala!

 

[Pickman's model]

War economies don't count.

that's the grinding of goalposts shifting.

 

[DotCommunist]

War economies don't count.


If I had a totalitarian state I'd make sure the stats were good too.

compiled by UNICEF, that noted tool of the communist regimes.

 

[DotCommunist]

Not forgetting Kerala!

It is remarkable to see leftist factions infighting when they have power. Not remarkable to see leftist infighting, just that it is pretty good to see them fighting over leftist doctrines and not who can sell the people out the quickest

 

[sleaterkinney]

compiled by UNICEF, that noted tool of the communist regimes.

I meant with absolute control it's the least they can do, I wonder if the child's literacy is noted in the file that the government keeps on them on their "revolutionary integration"